Priority admissions to grammar for free school meals

[polycomfort]

I'm pretty much not a person to start hand-wringing over low income families getting breaks. Happy for people less fortunate to get the odd leg up. Fine.

But I'm really angry to have just read that the local grammar school has just started giving priority admission to children claiming free school meals. I understand they get an extra £900 per child so I get that there is probably a financial benefit for the schools themselves. But I've been practicing with my daughter every evening (can't afford a tutor) using books I've bought cheap on Amazon and was thinking she might be just about good to go after lots of effort from both of us and now I'm just thinking what's the point? There are 20 applications per space as it is, and now just because I'm not poor she has even less of a chance. We don't have a high income but I work full time and so she doesn't get free school meals. For my efforts I may end up having to send my really rather bright daughter to the crappy (and it is crap) local comp even though she may be brighter than a child whose parent doesn't bust a gut to work every day of the week.

I don't think it's okay for grammar schools to be crammed full of wealthy kids who could go to private school, but couldn't they do a household income cut off rather than using a free school meal as the criteria? Then all the kids who can't afford to go to private school could be assessed for grammar school. I don't see why kids from the middle income should be penalised.

I mention Latin because my brother failed 11+ but then passed at 12+. Once he started Latin he really loved it and took off educationally and went into the express stream of the grammar school. He would never have got Latin in the sec mod so he would never have taken off. Apparently if you fail tests at 10yrs you are not suited to Latin - for some odd reason.

If all schools are not good enough- they need to improve - not say they are good enough for the bulk but the top academic children must be removed and get the best. Everyone deserves the best education.

My dd prob won't be going to a grammar even though her siblings will .I want a school that suits her and she isn't exactly an all rounder.Will prob send her to whichever comp( choice of several)has the best Eng dep although I haven't decided yet.I'm guessing that'll be ok by those that think they should decide where other people's kids go to school.

Sorry *mehitabel^ I thought you were saying that one size could fit all. We obviously agree that different children sometimes need different schools,

Is it a comp if they are missing the very top end?

There you go again Meh saying grammars are the best schools.Aren't Outstanding and Good comps the best too?Far more kids are prevented from schools such as this than a tiny no of grammars.

One size can never fit all but there is absolutely no need to have separate buildings, Heads and uniforms.

and who has said they dont need to improve of course they do!

there is lots of confusion over top end on the thread and in all these discussions.

is it the top thats being creamed off?

There are a significant minority of pupils who are 'wasting' their time other students and teachers time in schools.

The only concern should be that these pupils leave school with an objective or a pathway in to employment. Instead we are forcing these 'bored' children to study academic subjects where they have no intrest or skill level to 16 years old.

It surely would be better if such students were identified with a 'skill' that with the relevant education and support could find them employment. These pupils should therefore be in a education environment that helps them achieve that , Focused on the determind skill set they have.

So although I used 'Headline' words Borstal (though they did help some boys/girls in to productive futures). I don't see what 'vocational schools' has to do with 1930s thinking. The truth is unfortunately like Mehitab says you can in the majority of situations , judge the academic abilty of students from their family background. This is why it is imperitive that children who do show 'academic' promise from the background of child (2) need to be educated in selective education, (if no grammar school exists, a fully paid scholorship to the nearest academic private school is required).

I Thought we had established that I thought comprehensives the best schools.
I moved areas especially.

Meh they'll lose a tiny number as the grammars have a huge number of feeder primaries and they lose far more to the uber popular comp down the road so not sure what you mean by top tier.

I'm guessing you think all comps not good or outstanding aren't comps as up and down the land parents move away from such schools to be nearer good and above schools.

Mehit Understood about Latin!

Forty-five years after Latin and Greek A-Levels I still love them both, so I'm just the least bit biassed.

If you miss the top end it is not a comp. That is why private schools in most urban areas have a kind of pecking order and the brightest schools (today's school tables show 1 state school only - a grammar - in the top 20 schools in the country and state schools doing worse than ever by the way and nice to see my daughter's private school at place 2 or 3 in the whole country) take the bright children and the others take the rest. That does not mean no one is bright in the rest of the private schools locally in urban areas as some children do much better at age 13 or 14 not 11 but it does mean you cannot say it is by IQ comprehensive as few parents of the bright are going to choose those second rank places.

Of course they are benefitting from an unfair system. They are getting the teachers who want to teach 6th form for a start. They have all subjects open to them, they are not going to be told they can't learn Latin.

I'm not sure what you're basing your thoughts on here, but I can assure you that my other child who does not go to a grammar school has teachers that teach in the 6th form at his school, and he had far more subjects to choose from at GCSE than his sibling who goes to grammar.

What is this top end?

This top 25%?

Good all rounders? Strong in Maths and Eng?

So those going onto secondary are - mediocre?

Maddness.

I don't know any grammar schools that teach latin nowadays.

If you miss the top end it is not a comp.

The superselective schools don't take all the top end though. Not everyone who could go to a grammar does. Anyway, they usually only take a small percentage of children so it doesn't have a big impact on the comprehensive.

PtolemysNeedle

how did one not at grammar fair, feel bad? how do you feel about it.

DD2 (grammar) YR11 is taking Latin WJEC Level 2 this Summer ! It is not a GCSE but is equal to it.

DD1 never had the chance (though I don't think she is 'Bothered' about it.

There is such contradiction from the against crowd.

The 11+ doesn't test for intelligence, but its takes off 25 % of the top students.

Then there are dc who had a bad day, and failed, the dc who are gifted in other areas but just not whats required for 11+, parents who don't care, parents who are politically against it, dc who are against it and dc who are very bright but just not all rounders.

So many reasons why very bright dc do not go, and as le petit says, so many more creamed off by the schools that educate the majority of dc in the uk, comps!

I have two dc, one strong all rounder, academic loves learning and we don't know about the other.

I am going to try and get 1 into grammar, and if second is different will find suitable ( state) school for her. Am I going to spit feathers over un fair systems etc? No!

One size can never fit all but there is absolutely no need to have separate buildings, Heads and uniforms.

For children with significant learning disabilities there is sometimes a need for separate buildings, separate heads and separate uniforms. My DS special school has 80 pupils and the head is very busy everyday as she personally oversees all of the child in need meetings (which is a lot as most children are deemed child in need and have multi agency meetings every Six weeks). She has expertise knowledge in learning disability and is a very hands on head teacher. She couldn't fulfil her role to the same extent if she had 80 SN pupils and another 1000 NT pupils.
Anybody who thinks my son could be taught in the same building, wearing the same uniform as 1000 NT kids seriously knows nothing about children with profound and multiple learning disability and complex sensory issues. All the children walking up and down the corridors between lessons would be enough to send my child and others like him into meltdown. My child also hadn't worn correct uniform for the last three years as he can't cope with it, so same building and same uniform wouldn't work for him.

Beyond, the one not at grammar didn't do the test and it's not a problem. He is probably more academically intelligent than the one at grammar, but we have an excellent comp nearby that he wanted to go to instead, for various reasons. It was a big discussion point for all of us for a while, but eventually we decided that he wouldn't sit the test. Looking back, as it was a few years ago now, I can see that we made the right decision for each of our children.

thats great Ptolemy and pretty much how I see our future chances/choices.

I don't mind a super selective where you have a huge area and no more than a couple per primary school getting in. It doesn't matter to the comprehensives because many of the most academic don't bother to take the test, they prefer to be with friends and not travel long distances.
SN can't be catered for unless money is spent on their needs- it can't be done as a cheap option.