Priority admissions to grammar for free school meals

[polycomfort]

I'm pretty much not a person to start hand-wringing over low income families getting breaks. Happy for people less fortunate to get the odd leg up. Fine.

But I'm really angry to have just read that the local grammar school has just started giving priority admission to children claiming free school meals. I understand they get an extra £900 per child so I get that there is probably a financial benefit for the schools themselves. But I've been practicing with my daughter every evening (can't afford a tutor) using books I've bought cheap on Amazon and was thinking she might be just about good to go after lots of effort from both of us and now I'm just thinking what's the point? There are 20 applications per space as it is, and now just because I'm not poor she has even less of a chance. We don't have a high income but I work full time and so she doesn't get free school meals. For my efforts I may end up having to send my really rather bright daughter to the crappy (and it is crap) local comp even though she may be brighter than a child whose parent doesn't bust a gut to work every day of the week.

I don't think it's okay for grammar schools to be crammed full of wealthy kids who could go to private school, but couldn't they do a household income cut off rather than using a free school meal as the criteria? Then all the kids who can't afford to go to private school could be assessed for grammar school. I don't see why kids from the middle income should be penalised.

But box why do we assume the FSM kids haven't been coached at home, just like my dd?
Those who are disadvantaged by parents who don't support them won't even apply because their parents don't think like that.

I know a couple of untutored fsm kids that went for a grammar test actually. The year 6 teacher told them to try and they had nothing to loose.

And to make a very random point about an anecdotal scenario that I'm aware of - my ex DSS gets free school meals because his mother doesn't work, but my ex DH (dss's father) pays for a private tutor. Both his parents are educated to degree level. so that particular child has a tutor, plenty of money from CSA, a supportive mother at home, AND fsms.

Okay as I say it's anecdotal but highlights why I feel this should be black and white highest grade gets in. Either It's a selective environment for the children of the best ability.. Or not.

That's great to hear Box but I would suggest for the most part that children whos parents aren't arsed to help them to prepare for the tests, probably aren't arsed to apply either. Okay maybe the odd few will go under their own steam based on a teacher's advice but even to get themselves to the open day and fill in the application form would require parental input.

My point being that these kids who are in supported but naturally very bright and who deserve a break, probably aren't the ones I'm worried about as sadly they won't even get that far.

As the prep kids taking all of the places keeps coming up I am curious as to why that is. Are prep schools really that much better at teaching that the kids who go there have a huge advantage? If most kids are tutored then why are those at state primary + tutoring not able to secure more of the places? I understand that state schools don't prepare children for the exams but doesn't the tutoring cover the exam prep element whilst the school element covers all other aspects of learning?

When my dc did it they hadn't covered any of the maths( not even column addition) and we're talking kids doing level 6 in year 6, they don't do short essay writing or decent comps,no VR or non VR, hadn't covered a lot of the Eng eg imagery,idioms etc.

Their privately educated friends had covered all the maths,had done short essay writing,had covered all the Eng.Some preps actually teache to the 11+ eg does VR etc and this is all in teeny classes with no disruption/pushy teachers and tutoring outside of school on top.My dc's privately educated friends were also pulled out of school in the weeks before to concentrate and study the 11+,obviously those in the state system aren't allowed to do that.

I'd like to know the percentage of children who attend grammar school and happen to come from a privately educated background. I wouldn't think it would be more then a small percentage.

This is just my experience. I know one privately educated child who's now in a grammar. The other privately educated children i know remain in the system because they have SEN - dyslexia, high functioning Aspergers etc and the main stream private school meets their needs well. All other grammar
Kids I know come from a mixture of state primaries with a variety of intakes.

You would think that people would be pleased to think that the most disadvantaged children in society were being given a helping hand - not thinking of all sorts of arguments as to why they shouldn't.

I don't see the point of taking from 1 poorer section of society to give to another ie simply shuffling places.It doesn't benefit more kids,the richer kids stay untouched. Frankly I find shoving something in place that doesn't actually fix a supposed problem and simply disadvantages others hardly something to praise.

Yes box it would be interesting to see. I guess actual percentages must vary in different areas.

In Bucks with the new supposed untutorable CEM exam it has been widely reported that privately educated pupils are going up. At the moment it's 70% privately educated to 20% state.

Frankly I don't get the justification of privately educated kids being allowed to hoover up state places.Grammar schools were for state kids,any child can go to a state school so it would hardly be discrimination if state kids had priority.

And then parents of kids in mediocre state schools get berated for tutoring their kids to get them up to the same level.Madness.

lepetit I think it is very disappointing that level 6 children haven't even covered column addition or idioms by year 6 in state schools. This is where I think some state schools are failing their brightest pupils. Once a child has covered the curriculum for their age and is secure in all aspects of it they should be moved on and taught other stuff. A parent should not need to pay for private education in smaller classes to achieve that. I taught my own DS column addition and long multiplication (and other stuff) when he was in year 3 because he was already working at level 4 and was ready for it and he grasped it very easily. I thought he was just at a crap school which couldn't /wouldn't differentiate his work but from what you say this sounds like the norm.
I wouldn't expect state schools to teach NVR or VR so I do understand that parents or tutors need to fill those those gaps but I don't expect parents and tutors to need to teach children maths and English for the 11+.
Based on schools not teaching NVR and VR it is easy to see why so few disadvantaged children (using the current PP measure) get places at grammar schools and it would be nice to see primary schools spending some of the PP money on extra classes after school for the brightest PP children to be taught NVR and VR.
I fully support PP children getting priority for places at grammar schools but more needs to be done to at least let them be familiarised with reasoning prior to the exams.

And then parents of kids in mediocre state schools get berated for tutoring their kids to get them up to the same level.Madness.

I think the argument there is that mediocre state schools need to improve.

Yes my daughter hit 6b in maths before easter in year 6 - and her teacher told her she couldnt teach her any more and she had to spend time helping the others. Teachers are targeted on how many get to level 4b so beyond that has no effect.

I agree Super re using the pp money for extra tutoring however I'm still not comfortable re prioritising places as it will always be those just over the cut off who will lose places and they are more likely to be the poorer kids( who have missed out on G&T courses any extra tuition funded by pp etc).

Frankly any family who works their arses off and goes without to help their dc are just as deserving.It will never be a level playing field. Ensuring there are plenty of places for state kids,that all kids have access to VR and non VR alongside a decent,equal education in the basics is key imvho.

lepetit how would that work with children who have been at private schools which specialise in a specific learning disability (dyspraxia, dyslexia etc). Not all private schools are chosen by parents due to academia, some private schools do specialise in specific learning needs. I think rather than saying that state school children should get priority for GS places if would be better to campaign for state schools to provide more differentiation for the brightest children and more classes after school to prepare children for the 11+ and more help for parents in making 11+ applications. I do agree that the current cut off point for PP eligibility means that some children will be unfairly disadvantaged but I don't know what other measure could be used- tax credit eligibility maybe? Other qualifying benefit being received for at least 12 months in the past three years?
I don't know what the answer is, but I do think poorer children should get priority and state educated children should get some preparation.
Giving priority for places to all state educated children would only mean many children moving from private to state for the last two years of primary school (much the same as some older students move from private to state for 6th form due to the positive discrimination that was introduced).

Super but what about kids with dyspraxia and dyslexia stuck in the state system without an education that suits them?

The state schools should help them. The issue is that if state schools were better at teaching everyone we wouldn't have people being advantaged by their ability to pay for education.

We have no grammar schools in our London borough. I have known two children from my sons' then prep school leave at 11+ (their school goes to 13+) to move to Bucks and get into Dr Challoner's. Probably one boy a year goes to a state school at 11+, may be 2 sometimes, from our local private schools and usually because the parents have fallen on harder times as the local private schools are very good indeed even compared to grammars. A few I have known have gone to Watford Grammar at 11+ although that is not a grammar school and is one of those weird schools which i think takes a percentage of each ability range of something strange so that if you are very bright but not very top you might be deliberately trying to do a bit worse in the exam to come into second tier or ridiculous things like that.

It seems to be very unfair indeed if a state education system which I fund does not offer the same kinds of schools all over. What is special about the children of Buckinghamshire in their genes other than the fact their parents are mostly rich that they get grammar schools whereas in Newcastle where I am from we were deemed not right for them in about 1970? (I always went to private schools as do my children from 4 - 18)

Mom - the school will have to show each child has made ample progress. So it's not about all children getting 4b, although 4b is the average. I would complain to the head as the school should be meeting your DS's learning needs and should have a plan in place if they can't. It might just be that she does extended work on the computer or with the head

All the grammars in my area are expanding anyway due to a shortage in cash. They are taking an extra class in year 7

It's very unusual situation to have 70% privately educated, 30% state in to a grammar. This won't be the norm and certainly isn't in my area.

It was last year BOX so bit late .... will be in if happens to other DTC in year 6 - we dont have a grammar school but she was bored after easter. She wasnt the only one either - schools tend to spend the cash in the lower ability rather than the gifted -

Do you have exact figures Box instead of surmising?Exact figures would be interesting,clearly Bucks have looked into it.

In our area you see all the kids in prep uniforms at grammar open days so I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were huge.At the end of the day it should only be a tiny percentage of privately educated at grammar schools as the numbers of privately educated kids are tiny- but they still get the best uni places,jobs etc.Grammars were supposed to redress the balance.