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Original poster

Priority admissions to grammar for free school meals

999 replies

polycomfort · 02/04/2015 14:58

I'm pretty much not a person to start hand-wringing over low income families getting breaks. Happy for people less fortunate to get the odd leg up. Fine.

But I'm really angry to have just read that the local grammar school has just started giving priority admission to children claiming free school meals. I understand they get an extra £900 per child so I get that there is probably a financial benefit for the schools themselves. But I've been practicing with my daughter every evening (can't afford a tutor) using books I've bought cheap on Amazon and was thinking she might be just about good to go after lots of effort from both of us and now I'm just thinking what's the point? There are 20 applications per space as it is, and now just because I'm not poor she has even less of a chance. We don't have a high income but I work full time and so she doesn't get free school meals. For my efforts I may end up having to send my really rather bright daughter to the crappy (and it is crap) local comp even though she may be brighter than a child whose parent doesn't bust a gut to work every day of the week.

I don't think it's okay for grammar schools to be crammed full of wealthy kids who could go to private school, but couldn't they do a household income cut off rather than using a free school meal as the criteria? Then all the kids who can't afford to go to private school could be assessed for grammar school. I don't see why kids from the middle income should be penalised.

OP posts:
Mehitabel6 · 04/04/2015 15:11

I find it odd that you can have a post saying that all comprehensives can't be good and yet it is assumed that all grammar schools must be good. All schools vary -and grammar schools are no exception.

Marynary · 04/04/2015 15:16

All schools vary -and grammar schools are no exception.

True but if you are offered a comprehensive that is one of the bottom in the country for results and added value, a grammar is unlikely to be worse for an academic child.

Mehitabel6 · 04/04/2015 15:19

Agreed - but it doesn't make it a good school.

Marynary · 04/04/2015 15:28

Agreed - but it doesn't make it a good school.

I think that the majority of super selective grammars are good schools. Even if they are only average rather than good, they will be better than a failing comprehensive. Not everyone gets to choose a good school if they can't afford to pay privately.

SunnyBaudelaire · 04/04/2015 15:30

but what is this 'good'?
yes they are v 'good' for pupils who excel at IQ tests - nobody else deserves anything 'good' according to some people on this forum.

Superexcited · 04/04/2015 15:44

My child with profound learning disabilities goes to a specialist school where none of the pupils would excel at IQ tests but it is still an excellent schools as it serves the needs of its pupils very well. I personally think a school is very good if it meets the needs of its own students very well and helps to maximise their potential. It doesn't matter if hat school is an independent, grammar, secondary, comp or special school, it doesn't matter what the ability of the students is.
I wouldn't rate a school highly if it failed to get its brightest students the grades they deserve or failed to ensure that the lowest achievers maximised their potential.
By selecting a grammar school I was mindful that my son would be among a group of students who are capable of learning at a similar pace as himself and that he would be most comfortable with that. Had he been sporty I would have wanted a school which could maximise his sporting potential and enable him to enjoy a varied sports curriculum. If he had been like my other child and had a severe learning disability I would have wanted a school that could meet his particular learning needs. Is there something wrong with wanting schools which we feel will be the best fit for our children?

Marynary · 04/04/2015 15:49

but what is this 'good'?
yes they are v 'good' for pupils who excel at IQ tests - nobody else deserves anything 'good' according to some people on this forum.

I don't know if anyone has said that have they?

Box5883284322679964228 · 04/04/2015 15:55

Mary - We have a choice between a boys grammar which has poor value added, ropey leadership and a stressy environment (DS got a place), a successful super selective grammar (DS didn't get a place), a bog standard city comp, a top comp with good value added and lots of parental respect.

Box5883284322679964228 · 04/04/2015 15:56

For me a good school is more then academic

Everstrong · 04/04/2015 16:03

Interesting thread. My dd isn't at school yet but already I panic about making the right decision about her education.

Our local school is in special measures, a look at the ofsted reveals that bullying and safety are an issue as well as teachers "failing to challenge more able pupils". It's exactly this that worries me. DD has an "advantage" in that she has two parents educated to doctorate level (both of us came from local "comps" and we did alright) and we are motivated to help her do well and will always find time for reading and homework etc.

So in theory she should do well wherever she goes?!

I have to say I don't agree. Having gone through the "local comp" education system I have to agree with what pourme said. I was bullied constantly because I always came out on top academically. I was painfully shy and my nickname at school was "the nutty professor" as one of the boys said "it was because I was too much of a swot".

My parents weren't big on education so there wasn't much stimulation at home. At school the combination of being bullied for having academic ability and getting bored because I didn't feel challenged was pretty toxic. I started bunking off regularly from about 14 and instead of the 5 A grades I was predicted (no A* back then) I landed myself a disappointing AABBC. This affected the rest of my education and I had to take the long way (night school, mature student etc) to get to where I am now at immense cost.

So no, I don't believe a child will do well anywhere just because they are bright and their parents are interested in their education. Who would want their child to be bullied and unsafe at school? I don't want my child to go to a school where the kids aren't challenged and bullying is rife. I don't want her to go to a school where the parents are feeding their kids crisps and energy drinks for breakfast on the way to school and shouting at their kids calling them "little f*ing s**ts" because in complete honesty I can't see how people who treat their kids like that will care a jot about education.

Marynary · 04/04/2015 16:07

Box5883284322679964228 - I'm not sure what your point is. You may have been able to choose a "top comp with good value added and lots of parental respect" but many people don't have that choice including me or OP.

Original poster
polycomfort · 04/04/2015 19:26

That's exactly it Mary. All children deserve a good school but for those of us without one as a choice, the only hope is that they will be bright enough and that we can support them well enough (with practice papers at home) to get in to the grammar. I don't think my dd deserves a better education than a poorer child, or a less bright child, or a child whose parents don't care about them. But I do think if you have a system whereby a test is sat and children are ranked in order of pass mark, that her space shouldn't be taken by a child with a lower mark than her... For any reason. Otherwise, what's the point?

Stupid thing is if I gave up my job Id have more time to support her in gaining her place. Yet it seems she'd be more likely to get one as Id have no income and she'd be a FSM receiver. Maybe there's my answer!

OP posts:
LePetitMarseillais · 04/04/2015 20:00

Yanbu

It's a ridiculous idea for several reasons.

Firstly it's just place shuffling.Those not on FSM but just above will most likely be the ones to lose a place certainly not the privately educated rich kids it's supposed to limit- if you go by the argument that less income means a harder battle to get a place.

Secondly in our area it's those that have had fsm in the last 6 years so in theory a privately educated rich kid whose parents hit on bad times for a year would get priority over poorer kids permanently poorer.

It stigmatises those on fsm.

It doesn't actually help kids on fsm to pass the exam which they will still need to do.

A far better idea would be to prioritise all state primary educated kids and give more primary kids info and help with exam familiarisation.

tiggytape · 04/04/2015 20:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Box5883284322679964228 · 04/04/2015 20:30

If there are a number of children scraping a grammar school place, id be surprised if the home tutored middle-class children were as bright as the untutored less advantaged poorer children. It makes sense for these less advantaged untutored bright children to have a place above your DD who is boarderline despite home tutoring.

LePetitMarseillais · 04/04/2015 20:31

I'm aware it's already in place,Hmmit's still a mad idea and just paying lip service.

The only kids who will lose places will be the less well off.

And sorry but with the 6 year rule means there will be kids getting preferential treatment who won't need it.Any one of us on this thread could have fallen on hard times in the past 6 years and our dc would be no more deserving than a child permanently just over.

LePetitMarseillais · 04/04/2015 20:34

Box the op's child may have gone to a shite primary.

Without some exam prep I doubt either would get in.Kids just rocking up having done nothing is a myth.Schools encourage some prep.Ours even has sample papers on the website,runs familiarisation days and used to sell papers pre CEM.

tiggytape · 04/04/2015 20:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LePetitMarseillais · 04/04/2015 21:01

But those on fsm get help with school trips,G&T courses funded,free school dinners etc.

Those just above will be missing all that,it's utter madness,just shuffles places and actually takes from those who may actually have less in their pocket.

tiggytape · 04/04/2015 21:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LePetitMarseillais · 04/04/2015 21:13

But it's shafting kids just over who will be missing out on any support.By your own argument it won't go the richer kids losing places.It's simply shuffling places. The richer kids lucky enough to go to nice little preps with classes of 15 and under teaching to the test won't even notice.As I said- it's utter madness.

Box5883284322679964228 · 04/04/2015 21:25

Le - yes ops child could have gone to a shite school. However home based factors hugely influence attainment to a greater degree. Simple things like having books about the house and reading bedtime stories, parents/children having aspirations/routines.

BeyondRepair · 04/04/2015 21:28

The sort of people who think of it as a "risk" are unlikely to have children who will fail and cock up their whole lives whatever school they are at. The children who fail and cock up their whole lives are those who are unsupported and disaffected

You are very very wrong there I am speaking from personal experience.

It is a risk for thousands of Dc actually, and I know it was a risk for some of my family members and one we all live with now as a shackle round our necks.

When people try and tell me, its not a risk, it makes me feel almost violent Shock as we as a family live with the legacy. Not one person in one school but quite a few from different ones ( all rubbish).

There are trillions of variables to take in.

It is a risk and not every child no matter how much mummy and daddy hold their hand at home, and give them aspirations and help them aim higher, in some schools for some DC it wont be enough.

BeyondRepair · 04/04/2015 21:29

I agree Marseilles its not tackling the ones who are spoon fed and with the real advantage.

Muskey · 04/04/2015 21:41

Can I just ask how likely it is that families who are eligible for pupil premium actually apply for grammar school places let alone pass the 11+ Given the low expectations for these families I would imagine very few apply mostly because of "it's not for us attitude" or the inability for their parents to pay for extras like an expensive school uniform and sports kit. I actually believe that bright children from poorer homes should be given priority over bright children from richer homes as they need the help more