to think that no wonder the NHS A&E depts waiting time is bad, there are so many timewasters.

[CalicoBlue]

I just spent the afternoon (3 hours) in Urgent Care/A&E with DS. I have not been to A&E in over 12 years and was really surprised at all the reasons people were there for. Granted if it had not been the weekend I would have gone to my GP, but my son's condition meant he needed to be seen today.

We were sat very close to the welcome window, so I heard every new person come in. There were so many people there who should not have been. The nurse kept asking people if they had seen their GP, so many said no.

One girl said that she had been there last week had been given antibiotics for a water infection and it had not gone so she wanted to see the doctor again, the nurse said that she should have made an appointment for her doctor and that urgent care was not to come to instead of the GP. There were at least two that had lost prescriptions given by their GP so wanted UC to replace them and would not take no for an answer. It went on an on, another person came in with his father who had an ongoing leg problem, the nurse tried to explain that he needed to see his GP, but he did not have one as he was on holiday and wanted to get his leg sorted before he went home again, they did tell him that they would not see him and he would not get the operation he said he wanted on the NHS.

I estimated that at least one third of the people coming there could have been seen by their GP. There were lots who did need to be seen, and lots of sick kids, but they had to wait so long. I felt quite guilty for being and taking up the doctors time.

Cuba has the best health outcomes for the money spent, of any medical system.
The US has shocking rates of infant and maternal death. In the US if you can afford it, you can get great health provision. Those who can't, get terrible health provision.

For what it's worth, I have lived and worked in 5 countries. The current city I am working in has an exceptionally high standard of healthcare, including in emergency. I once had a hideous uti, which in the UK would only call for a routine GP appointment, but might well end up in A&E if treatment was delayed (as it so often is in the NHS). I called an 0800 number, a GP was in my apartment within 30 minutes and he prescribed antibiotics and took a sample. Total cost was about 50 quid which I claimed back from my insurance company. I can usually see a specialist within 2 to 3 days and I call them directly. No fannying about with GP's if I don't think it necessary. Nobody is without healthcare because visitors and those with working visas are not allowed in the country without insurance. Nationals have their private healthcare funded by taxes and are free to top up.

I accept that we don't have enough doctors to deliver that in the UK, but the next best option is surely the European model, ie where everyone is insured with a company of their choice and the government pays the premia of the poorest.

My experience of the NHS has been piss poor, from the GP who said I had jaw strain and should not talk (blocked salivary gland caused by chemo) to the 10 or so specialists who told me (without anything approaching a scan) that my massive fucking tumour was PID, IBS and in fact anything that meant they could complain that I was wasting their time. I passed out from pain at the wheel of my car in the end, never mind the catastrophe that a vehicle collision could have caused. My notes were hastily doctored. Based on my experience, I fear that the NHS is a terrifyingly inept and corrupt institution - although it does pay my DH rather generously, so I do at least have 1 positive thing to report!

mariamin yes, according to Cuba. I am sure their tractor production is up as well!

I think the U.S. system is about the only model that is worse than ours, so I agree with your second point.

OldFarticus - That kind of system costs. The reality is we pay far less for our healthcare than many countries we get compared to. We need to pay more if we want better healthcare.

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health

NHS not All that bad it seems!

And I have heard horror stories from friends who have private health insurance. The issue is that Drs are almost unaccountable, and can get away with appalling practice in the NHS and private healthcare.

Sirzy The Guardian would say that wouldn't they? We all have our own experiences, and as I say, having lived in 5 other countries, you couldn't pay me to use the NHS.

I am more than happy to pay much more for healthcare. I think that is the only way people will actually value it and not abuse it in the way described in the OP. However, throwing money at the NHS has not really improved it much - Brown hosing money at it actually resulted in a decline in productivity iirc.

The nhs is probably the most cost effective system in the world. That doesn't mean that its the best. If we want to improve the nhs then we need to increase taxation. As a nation we cannot have low taxation and the best govenment provided health care in the world.

One great advantage of the nhs is that there is less unnecessary interventions. Doctors don't get paid more for doing unnecessary tests. There are certainly problems with the French system being bureucratic and poor people having to pay for healthcare up front and then reclaim the money. Sometimes health problems can end up costing more if someone puts off going to the GP in early stages.

In most countries across the world if you fail to turn up to a medical appointment you get billed. It would be interesting to compare the number of people who do not attend in different countries.

OldFarticus - I am a frequent user of the NHS. I can tell you clearly that it did improve when more money was being spent on it under Labour. And interestingly the amount of people taking out private healthcare in this country dropped.
Many of us who are disabled or chronically ill value the NHS greatly. But then I don't expect a system where I get a home visit within 30 minutes of requesting one, when it clearly is a routine medical issue. That kind of system is very expensive and universal health care will never be able to fund that.

I do acknowledge in my previous post that the system currently enjoy is OTT and not realistic for the UK. However, I think it is unwise for the government to be a monopoly provider of anything, which is why I favour a European-style system.

Incidentally, the experience described above also happened on Labour's watch. In a mixed ward. With one shower shared between 12 beds and dry bread for breakfast.

Sorry, but I have never seen any of those things in any country apart from the UK. Irrespective of the cause (and I do not believe it is only funding - bleach cost pennies, so why do so many UK hospitals all smell of shit?) it is not acceptable in 2015 and I am amazed that the Brits tolerate it.

Must do some work now!

An insurance style system will be more expensive. Also many insurance systems have co pays. Doesn't matter for well off fairly healthy people, it would have a massive impact on me.I fear this is what will happen, and that I will no longer be able to afford the level of healthcare I currently get under the NHS. Meanwhile well off healthy people will be happy as they will be able to see a Dr quickly for routine stuff.

OLdFarticus - Then your local hospital sounds terrible. Not my experience at all.

Health services in other european countries have problems too.

www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-01-03/frances-health-care-system-is-going-broke

France is struggling with the costs of health care. Other european countries are also struggling with the rising bills of health care.

In Germany the chronically ill have problems with getting health insurance.

www.thelocal.de/20100510/27107

Self employed people struggle to afford the costs of health insurance. The difference of service between the rich and poor is greater in germany than the UK. There is also the issue of over treatment of private patients on an insurance system.

I think its tempting to think that the grass is greener on the other side. Every country in the world has issues with providing healthcare to all its citizens. I feel that long waits in the waiting room is the least of our problems with the nhs. Waiting an hour to see the consultant for free is really a first world problem.

In the last 5 years I have had way more than average experince of the NHS. Mainly the local hospital and the large children's hopsital, the care at both hospitals has been largely without fault. GP care much worse but even then they managed to sort a second prescription for a new drug within 3 hours so a bottle could be left at school.

So far this year DS has had 3 CT scans (one under GA), 3 lung function tests, echo, ECG, one operation, two lots of bloods, a chest x ray, two day cases, 3 nights in and 2 consultants appointments. All for free, all delivered in a timely manner. We are just waiting now on another couple of procedures to be done under GA.

The hospitals have been clean, staff amazing, his consultant is only a phone call away and he listens.

It's not the same everywhere I am aware of that, but locally (and further afield when taken ill on holiday) we have had fantastic care and I doubt you could get it much better even if you did pay!

Yes I was taken to hospital last month by ambulance. The paramedic and ambulance people were great, I was assessed very quickly and admitted onto a ward. Had various tests and the nursing care was good. Even the food was fine. Not restaurant quality obviously, but it was fine. One nurse was abrupt, and 1 evening when the ward was very busy the nurses were very slow to meet non urgent requests. But overall it was a good experience and I got good healthcare.

In the hospitals we have experinced I think the quality of patient food has improved a lot In the last 5 years.

I agree. I remember about 8 years ago being given an almost inedible meal. I am very unfussy, and even I couldn't face it.
I know inw ards I am in nearly everyone is elderly, so the meals are more geared towards an older person's preferences e.g. lamb casserole, minced beef stew, or pasta. But even though it isn't what I would have made for myself, it was fine. There was also always sandwiches and yoghurt available.
And the cleanliness was very good. I know my hospital only has an average rating as well, so can't be unusual

It would be much better if they got rid of the NHS and made all companies provide good medical insurance for all their employees.

850Pro - I work part time for a very small company. Any health insurance for me would be exorbitant. i simply wouldn't be able to get employment. The majority of people in Britain are employed by small companies. I can see such a scheme working for big employers, it would cripple many small ones. It would also put off companies even more from hiring women who they think might have children, as maternity care and giving birth is very expensive.

A lot of people with long term health conditions find it harder to find employment than healthy people. The system of medical insurance works well if you are healthy and have no need of the nhs. Disabled people or those born with genetic conditions end up with no health cover or cover is extremely expensive. There is a double wammy that those who are least able to earn a good income have the most expensive health premiums.

The cost of private health insurance in the UK is incredibly cheap compared to other countries as its usually is a top up to existing health care. If we had no nhs the cost of private health care would soar.

It would be much better if they got rid of the NHS and made all companies provide good medical insurance for all their employees.

Well done! That the stupidest comment I've ever read on MN

This makes very interesting reading:

www.resilientgp.org/inappropriate-demands/

RandomNPC - Assuming no mental health or LD issues, then some kind of sanction is appropriate.

RandomNPC, it what way is it stupid?