Its perfectly acceptable to be rude to religous people...

[startrek90]

Definately going to get flamed here but oh well.

I get the feeling that this is perfectly acceptable to be rude about religous people. From reading the threads on this forum, and my experiences in RL, the amount of rudeness and sometimes plain nastiness is awful.

I am religous. I don't care if people are not, if they go to church or how they live their own lives or raise their children. As far as I am concerned as long as you obey the law, do what you want.

So far I have seen people imply that all religous people are closing their childrens mind, are ignorant, bigots.... its horrible!

I don't deny that there are people who are that way and use religion as an excuse.... but quite frankly you can be ignorant and rude without religion.

I am being unreasonable to be offended, but it really bothers me that its culturally acceptable to be rude to and about people of faith. You wouldn't do it to someone from a different culture or race would you? I have never bothered anyone with my faith so please stop taking it as an insult!

(Just venting, been lambasted in RL for daring to buy my son a Noahs ark toy. I thought it was cute with all the animals etc... but apparently I am raising him to be ignorant, bigoted and stupid. He will hate gay people and women and generally be a horrible person.....apparently grrr )

I do roll my eyes a bit when people say things like "I automatically lower my estimation of a person when I find out he or she believes in a god."

My belief in God is not a choice.

Religion is, but belief isn't. I don't think people choose to be atheists.

honsandrevels

I'm well aware of the apocrypha, but that doesn't cause a problem for me (I'm an athiest remember...) as I am of the opinion that it is all made up anyway so inclusion or exclusion of any book does not matter.

It's not acceptable to be rude about someone's religion

But it IS perfectly acceptable to question/debate/raise issues with - someone's religion

I think there's a world of difference between for example

"Muslims are dumb" (RUDE!)
And
"Aren't you worried that your instilling homophobia in your child?" (DEBATE)

I can see why it is irritating or perceived offensive if someone has their beliefs questioned - but if they have enough conviction that their belief system is true - it shouldn't really bother them too much what others think about them believing it.

let's not pretend any of us know the facts

But some of us do.

How about not patronising people by pretending "none of us know the facts".

If it's any consolation, I don't want to be associated with atheists that think like you do, either. I couldn't tell those kinds of fibs, quite honestly.

Tonde, excellent point, you are quite right.

However these things are not sanctified by the government and are illegal in this country.

I agree with painted pink. I find the 'religious people are stupid/brainwashed' line that is sooo often taken by certain types of atheists so tiring and so boring. I wouldn't mind so much if it weren't for the fact that so these self defined bright free thinkers just trot out the same arguments in the same language as each other and are clearly just following the dominant group think/language of their group.

I was raised religious but haven't really followed on with if myself as an adult.
My DS has a Noah's Ark. It's lovely! When I worked in a (non denominational) nursery, the ark was one of the most popular toys. Not used with any religious significance. Just a nice toy.
The only religious thing that gets my goat is door knockers. A real pain and I often find "no thank you" is not sufficient to end the conversation.
I don't think it's ok to be rude to anyone really.

I don't lower my estimation of people when I find out they are religious but it does always surprise me when people who are educated and analytical are religious. How can people accept the bible as truth and how can people reconcile that there are lots of different religions (current and long dead) with completely different belief systems and just as many faithful followers? I'm not sure whether my atheism is a choice, I was raised as a Christian but gradually I came to think that it was an untenable belief system.

There's a big and very important divide between being rude about religion and being rude to religious people.

In my view, it's vital to be able to criticise religion, and to be able to pull no punches. For example, Leviticus probably made great sense to keep a roving band of warriors in the desert from going mad or being infected with the clap, but youd be bonkers to apply it to the 20th century (death penalty for mixed fibre clothes, anyone?) I'd be similarly within my rights to say that big mo taking a child as a wife was a tad dodgy and that I don't entirely believe the riding on a winged horse thing.

The ability to criticise, mock and eviscerate the weirdness of religion is VITAL. To our free speech and to our secular society. There are no sacred cows.

Bring rude to religious people, however, is an entirely different matter. I have a dear friend who is a born again xtian. She's really one of the loveliest people I know. We've had some hu dinging debates about religion but it NEVER gets personal. I can criticise her beliefs as much as I want but I'd never criticise her.

That people cannot see the difference between these two things is basically why folks are getting slaughtered for drawing cartoons, and it's very, very sad.

So OP, you have the right to practise your religion as you see fit (within the law of the land of course) but not the right to get miffed if people make fun of your religion.

The thing that annoys me most is when people judge all religious people on the actions of a few evil/extremist people who are also part of that faith.

Faith or no faith people are individuals who are responsible for their own actions, even if those actions are in their eyes in the name of their faith. I am no more responsible for the actions of another Christian than I am for those of anyone else, nor am I going to standby and justify their actions because of a shared faith.

This whining about rude atheists is nothing more than "Shut up. I don't want to hear your common sense, logic and reason so I shall shame you into being quiet by calling you rude".
Not quite. Really not, actually. The complain is that sometimes, when somebody say they are religious, or have a sign of religion, you will have assholes gives their two cents about what they believe (sciences, Stephen Hawkings, their moms...) unwarranted, and unasked for and will feel like smug clever guys/gals for badgering somebody else.

The funny thing, and I speak as an atheist, is that some of us say that they believe in Science, and take it as an absolute, when they could not understand a thing of the actual science behind it, the logic and the knowledge necessary to actual take science as a true fact.
They believe without understanding, and I consider it as silly as having faith in an invisible God.

I'm not keen on the love the sinner, hate the sin idea. It sounds okay in theory, but it can also be a bit judgey and patronising. I mean, in cases where the 'sin' is actually a perfectly legitimate thing to do, obviously.

Love the sinner, hate the sin... Also technically isn't scriptural depending on what religion or sect of certain religions you belong to.

It's just patronising fluff that sounds less offensive

ILovePud I don't think you'd find many middle of th road CofE attendees prepared to say that everything in the bible is the word of God. Noah living into his hundreds???

I'm agnostic but hate seeing people dismiss an entire academic subject!

I don't agree with the judge the religion... Not the person. If i think that religion is bonkers nonsense surely I would equally perceive the person who believes the nonsense is bonkers. Granted I don't have to be rude but i definitely don't have to respect either them or their beliefs.

Evangelical atheism is not possible.

Yes it is. Liberal secularism as practised in the UK and USA is directly descended from Christianity, via the Enlightenment.

It's actually pretty common for an evangelical / proselytising streak to resurface in modern secularism. It's a sort of recessive ideological gene

love the sinner, hate the sin

In the context of MN threads etc perhaps this can be usefully translated as : 'debate the idea, don't make ad hominem attacks', maybe?

HonsandrevelsI'm not dismissing an academic subject, I think religion is very interesting, but there's a big distinction between the academic study of theology and having those religious beliefs yourself. I guess I can't reconcile how someone can pick and choose from the bible without the whole belief system collapsing, if you accept that's not true how can you believe that Jesus was the son of God or that he rose from the dead, they seem equally unbelievable?

Oh yes, the Ark - what a lovely illustration of god's unconditional love - that he sent a flood to drown pretty much everyone in the world - including infants and those still in utero - and xtians want to glorify this horrific demonstration of genocide by telling children how great god is that he had Noah build an ark to save a select few? What about all the billions that died, just cos g-man regretted giving us free will and was pissed off with our behaviour.

So yes. I think that's pretty stoopid.

This whining about rude atheists is nothing more than "Shut up. I don't want to hear your common sense, logic and reason so I shall shame you into being quiet by calling you rude".

I disagree. There are some exceptionally vocal and rude atheists who are extremely arrogant and lacking in compassion and wisdom. (I am an atheist too)

It's like the difference between some of my friends who are child-free by choice and are perfectly rational and pleasant and comfortable in themselves, and the activist Child Free type who call all children "crotch droppings" and are smug and unpleasant about it all the time.

Jawell, no you are perfectly within your rights to think that a person who believes something that's batshit crazy is deluded. Or gullible.

What I'm saying is that there's a big difference between thinking worse of someone and actively abusing them

I'm pretty sure my evangelical friend thinks I'm off to hell for my atheism, but our friendship would only end if she started telling me that. Or preaching at me.

You're right to say you don't have to respect them but you'd not be rude. That's pretty much what I'm saying (maybe I'm just not being terribly eloquent about it.)

Skiptonlass, you are wrong in your assertion that people are being slaughtered because some Muslims can't see the difference between mocking a religion and a religious person. Some Muslims have seen how weak the Christian church has become in the west, and how mocked and derided it is, and they explicitly don't want Islam to become like that and have explicitly stated this. They want Islam to be strong and respected. It isn't that they can't understand the difference you outlined. They just reject the position you outline absolutely and are fighting against it.

Please note I have said some Muslims, not all. It is a big religion. Lots of different views!

.

I find religion incredibly difficult to reconcile religion with common sense, purely because I'm not religious, and can't find any logic in it. I do appreciate that a lot of people, perfectly intelligent people, don't feel the same as me, and I wouldn't challenge them on it, out of courtesy. Live and let live, provided you don't get in my face with it.

On the other hand, if you knock on my door, you're fair game, particularly if you don't listen to a polite 'no thanks'. I'm looking at you, local JWs; sticking your foot in my door, getting aggressive, and still coming back, despite repeated requests not to.

And there's a hell of a lot of death, repression, and emotional blackmail in the world, that is solely attributable to religion. On the whole, I think there's an awful lot wrong that has been caused by religion. But then, would those people responsible for that still be like that even without religion. Is it down to religion itself, or is that because of their personality. I'm not sure, I think possibly it's because radically religious people are going to stir up triuble under any umbrella they can.

It's possible to be an "evangelical" secularist- but not an evangelical atheist.

And of course it's not acceptable to be rude to people who haven't been rude to you first but it is unreasonable to expect people not to be rude about religion. Particularly while it still holds such a privileged position in our society.