Its perfectly acceptable to be rude to religous people...

[startrek90]

Definately going to get flamed here but oh well.

I get the feeling that this is perfectly acceptable to be rude about religous people. From reading the threads on this forum, and my experiences in RL, the amount of rudeness and sometimes plain nastiness is awful.

I am religous. I don't care if people are not, if they go to church or how they live their own lives or raise their children. As far as I am concerned as long as you obey the law, do what you want.

So far I have seen people imply that all religous people are closing their childrens mind, are ignorant, bigots.... its horrible!

I don't deny that there are people who are that way and use religion as an excuse.... but quite frankly you can be ignorant and rude without religion.

I am being unreasonable to be offended, but it really bothers me that its culturally acceptable to be rude to and about people of faith. You wouldn't do it to someone from a different culture or race would you? I have never bothered anyone with my faith so please stop taking it as an insult!

(Just venting, been lambasted in RL for daring to buy my son a Noahs ark toy. I thought it was cute with all the animals etc... but apparently I am raising him to be ignorant, bigoted and stupid. He will hate gay people and women and generally be a horrible person.....apparently grrr )

I am not religious but I see this all the time. It's really shocked me in the past. I've seen people do it to friends and in the workplace, and it's always the same people who would be horrified if anyone called them racist, prejudiced or bigoted.

So someone telling me in a passive aggressive kind of way that my children would have a better start in life if they were christened, rude or not. I think rude

Please can I have three examples of this rudeness from this thread? I never quite know what people are talking about. I do try not to be rude, personally, but I know I have been accused of it in the past. Can we once and for all identify what people mean?

Perhaps OK can identify as she thinks it OK to be rude. I don't think it is ever acceptable and am amazed at how rude people are about any choice you make, from number of children, food eaten, schools chosen or not chosen - anything under the sun. You don't have to agree but you can politely disagree. Rubbishing someone else's choice because it is different from your own is rude IMO and completely unnecessary.
Calling something 'stupid', ludicrous' or ' bullshit' because a person has a different opinion to you is rude. We are all different and luckily free to think what we like- we do not have to run it past anyone to see if they- from their exalted position- will let you think it!

As usual, BigDorrit, you missed the point.

I am noting that people complain about being oppressed by 'Christians' and 'Christianity' when in fact the peculiar status of the established churches in England and Scotland is what is getting on their tits. I am also encouraging people who use the terms 'Christian' and 'Christianity' to crack open a history book where they can find out exactly what is the established church in England (or Scotland, as applicable).

I agree that calling someone stupid for a belief is rude. I don't think me saying that I think a belief is ludicrous is rude. That said, I try to get on with people so wouldn't say it just for the sake of it.

I would say it if someone was using that belief to justify doing something I don't agree with and that impacts others, or as part of a discussion that people willingly entered into on this sort of subject.

But we are not free. Unelected church represantatives make laws. Children are all subject to religious indoctrinations at school to a greater or lesser degree at school- on the whim of the teacher- and this is protected in law.
Presumable no teacher would tell children that five is the best number of kids to have, that they should eat organic food or which political party to vote for- yet they can influence kids with doctrince.
"lets have a prayer of thanks" "isn't god wonderful", "jesus is our superhero" throwaway comments I have heard in class. Or having bible stories presented to children as history lessons before they can work things out for themselves.
Noah saved all the animals, jesus came back to life.

I am justified in calling all this crap- because it is.It's all just made up rubbish.

Compos, there is an established church in Scotland and also in England, but not in Ireland (since the Irish Church Act, 1869, that took effect in 1871) or Wales (since 1920). Up to 1869 the established church was the established church in both Britain and the entire island of Ireland, with Catholics, Presbyterians, Jews, Methodists, Quakers, atheists and all others paying tithes for its upkeep.

Don't worry, you are not pulling rank here when it comes to history .

You are willy waving though. I would try and curb that tendency if I were you.

BinkyBix, I find it rude for someone to call a belief ludicrous. There are other words you could use that would not cause offence. I am sure you would like to have your own opinions treated with respect too.
Moreover, it would be pointless to question the belief itself (no matter what terms you used) when what you are objecting to is the privilege accorded to the institution that preaches that belief. You are just venting in a pointless and obnoxious way and coming across as militant or intolerant if you disparage the belief. What you are angry about is that people assume their belief trumps other people's rights and the fact that a particular church is in a position to influence political affairs. The thing to object to therefore is the overriding of concepts of human or civil rights ad the arrangement where there is an established church. Not belief in Noah and the ark.

I also find calling beliefs 'crap' or 'rubbish' when what you are angry about is the fact that you do not have a choice as to what your child is exposed to in school to be rather irrational. What you are angry about is the lack of realistic choice. What is crap is the lack of choice. Other people's beliefs are none of your business really and I am sure they didn't ask for your opinion. The fact that your child is stuck with no realistic choice is not the fault of someone who has a religious belief and is employed as a teacher and expected to play a part in teaching about that belief.

I am supposed to suck up the fact that my DCs have to pray in assembly, at lunch, that they have a weekly assembly from the local evangelical church. I have to take it on the chin when TEACHERS tell my children that thunder is god moving his furniture ffs, when flyers for church services are given to my DCs and marketed as 'fun days', and when my DCs are told that Christian stories are truth. And when I do go into the school to discuss this, I am told that I am welcome to have my DCs removed from assembly, and asked why I have a problem with my DCs learning about our history and community.
This is a political issue, not one centred around whether belief in any particular god is warranted or ludicrous or evidence of feeble mindedness.

math - TBH I think most of us know that it is specifically the CofE which is the established church in England, (CoS in scotland) . Sometimes on these threads some people miss out that crucial word 'some'.... be it 'some christians' or 'some atheists' or 'some people'....

On MN in particular, the issue which gets on some people's tits the most is faith schools in the UK, and that is not confined to the CofE. There are also many RC, one or two Methodist and a sprinkling of non-christian religions. While there may not be schools dedicated to some of the other protestant denominations, many are given preferential treatment in CofE schools if they're part of 'Churches together'. There are a few denominations which are discriminated against (Unitarians) but a lot are covered. There are some schools which have a large majority of places preferentially allocated to children of CofE/Churches together parents, then maybe 10% 'other religions' - and absolutely none for the children of atheists, or mere apatheists. Do you wonder that occasionally someone on one of these threads forgets to include that 'some'?

There are of course some Christians and people of other religions who recognise the unfairness of religious discrimination against children - some even join the Accord Coalition or the fair admissions campaigns. Would that there were more.

math- so the teaching and indoctrination of kids in school has nothing to do with religion or the church- but rather some political issue.

No examples of rudeness yet?

I also find calling beliefs 'crap' or 'rubbish' when what you are angry about is the fact that you do not have a choice as to what your child is exposed to in school to be rather irrational. What you are angry about is the lack of realistic choice.

the two are not independent. I think fashion is crap, but I wouldn't object to it being taught at school. it's the fact that most claims, including the central ones, have essentially no support, yet are taught in school and society as if they have some importance.

you are right there are two issues - the churches' power and then the doctrines themselves. People however are aggressive about the latter because of the former, so that's what you are seeing here. Both problems are open for discussion (I think).

Well, I did say that I don't just say it for no reason - only if someone is using that belief as a reason to enforce something or as part of a debate. And people have asked me what I think sometimes, even if you say that you doubt that.

I'm not even thinking of schools here, as you seem to assume.

If someone thinks a view of mine is ludicrous I wouldn't be offended - is want to know why, listen to what they say then decide if I agree or not. What's the big deal?

I really don't think I come across as 'obnoxious' etc as you assume I do - never, ever had a problem like this in real life.

I am justified in calling all this crap- because it is.It's just made up rubbish.

In your opinion-that is very different. I would worry terribly that you don't explain the difference between fact and opinion to children.

I am justified in calling all this crap- because it is.It's just made up rubbish

How about:

All religions are equally ludicrous and stupid, because the central premise of all religion - that there is this invisible, special, super-being that made everyone and takes an interest in everthing - is bullshit
or
where it is the state superstition
or
I dislike religiuos people.

THey are usually arrogant- assuming they have a superior moral position. They think their souls are worth more that the heathen, so have a golden ticket at the pearly gates. They tell me I am a sinner. They even say my newborn baby is a sinner. Their ethos is gruesome, they worship a genocidal maniac. THeir dogma supports misogyny.
I can't see a lot to like

The rudeness in lumping them all together is quite breathtaking!

Sorry-I copied and pasted the same bit twice. It was in answer to No examples of rudeness yet?

THey are usually arrogant- assuming they have a superior moral position. They think their souls are worth more that the heathen, so have a golden ticket at the pearly gates. They tell me I am a sinner. They even say my newborn baby is a sinner. Their ethos is gruesome, they worship a genocidal maniac. THeir dogma supports misogyny.
I can't see a lot to like

That was the bit that didn't highlight properly. I didn't recognise any of it-maybe I mix with different sorts of Christians, but I have never heard that once.
Don't tell me that isn't rude or I hate to think what is rude when she really lets rip!!!

"I dislike religious people" is both rude and a very silly thing to say.

The others are opinions about religions, not about religious people- you surely arent't suggesting that it's rude to express negative opinions about religion??

In that way-yes. I wouldn't dream of saying it so rudely.

There are polite ways of disagreeing.

Ok, translate those same beliefs about religion into a more polite form - some are factual. How do you change them without changing the meaning?

I could quite easily. Moderate language for a start-and a respect that mine is an opinion -and other opinions are equally valid even if I don't hold them.

No wonder we have problems if people can be quite so rude and deny it. There was nothing factual in there-it was opinion.

"*THey are usually arrogant- assuming they have a superior moral position. They think their souls are worth more that the heathen, so have a golden ticket at the pearly gates. They tell me I am a sinner. They even say my newborn baby is a sinner. Their ethos is gruesome, they worship a genocidal maniac. THeir dogma supports misogyny"

Well, I have heard all those, or things very like them from Christians in my life. I have heard them on this very forum. One of the core tenets of Christianity is that we are all sinners and are only freed from sin by Christ. Why is it rude to say that?

I would disagree with every 'fact' in that excerpt.

Unless you're saying that someone's lying then someone calling them a sinner is a fact, not an opinion. Likewise their children being called sinners.