AIBU to be THAT parent? (Religious Observance)

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

In school, I think it is very important to learn about all world religions, for education, tolerance, historical perspective etc

However, I strongly object to praying/worshipping/being taught belief as fact.

Would it be really unreasonable to withdraw DD from the latter? (Scotland)

It'll definitely be worth sounding out the school and their particular ethos which is likely to be heavily influenced by the school leadership team.

If ds1's school has any acts of worship then I've never heard about them. Definitely no prayers in assembly, no church visits (though they visit mosques, gurdwaras and the local Hindu temple). They do the usual RE worksheets but it's very much framed as "Christians believe" not presented in any way as fact and the Christian work isn't any greater than any other religions.

I suspect the Head from a couple of things he's said, is pretty hard line anti-religion in schools (which although I'm Christian I'm totally pro) and would come down fairly hard on any attempt to proselytise.

Mind you, I don't think there's a chaplain to the school. If there is I don't know who it is and I suspect I would know if he/she visited since ds1 would be likely to recognise them.

"think it is very rare that children are taught 'belief as fact""

Really? Every time they are asked to thank god for something, or to put their hands together and pray they are being taught "belief as fact". Are you saying you think this is very rare in primary schools?

You need to speak to the school/other parents if possible. I find primary schools here far more "religious" than secondaries. They go to church twice a year, for example (non dom school) The chaplain might conduct assemblies and they might do it in different ways - eg "God loves us and we should thank him for..." OR "as a Christian I believe that God loves us and I ...". It is hard to know without any first hand experience which type you will get. You might just get "Today we will talk about respect" that kind of values thing.
Raise your concerns with the school.

I think you're doing your daughter a disservice actually and she'll be well able to make up her own mind. We are not religious in any way and the school (also Scottish non denominational) our children attend does have quite close links with the local church. The minister attends some assemblies and they have end of term/christmas services in the church etc. Attendance at these hasn't swayed my DDs or influenced how they feel about God - DD1 always says she doesn't know if there's a god and DD2 is certain there isn't.

I honestly wouldn't overthink it. I'm so unworried about this that I'm sending DD1 to a catholic high school. I have no worries that she'll become a nun!

Every time they are asked to thank god for something, or to put their hands together and pray they are being taught "belief as fact"

Of course they're not. No more than when they're encouraged to write letters to Father Christmas or asked if the tooth fairy visited them. It's a formula, at most a metaphor -- and most children aren't listening properly anyway!

I think all the people taking their anecdotal evidence of how they/their child ended up an atheist and using it as proof that everyone should just expose their children to lies and stop worrying about it are being naive.

I was exposed to many different forms of religion growing up, some quite aggressively pushed, thankfully I was very disillusioned by the age of about 11. Yet I still got taken in by a Baptist holiday club I went to for two weeks at that age, during which time/the time immediately after (thankfully it was short-lived) I prayed several times a day on my own at home and genuinely believed that if I walked out into traffic then the cotton-wool bubble feeling of Jesus'/God's protection I felt would somehow stop me from being hit, or I would die and it wouldn't matter because I would be with God in heaven and happy. They didn't even push the belief aggressively in the same way other beliefs had been pushed on me before - they just taught everything as fact. It makes you want to believe too.

People (and that includes children) vary in their susceptibility (vulnerability) throughout their lives due to all the circumstances and their life experiences. Plenty of young people grow up still believing, plenty of young people grow up not really believing but then get sucked in at a particular time in their lives. Some University Christian Unions know this - that's why they often put on barbecues and such on the weekend all the new students move away from home to uni. Obviously very small children are (hopefully) unlikely to be in an emotional state that means they want to use religion to fill a hole/meet a need, but all exposure to religion will have an effect. Perhaps when they grow up and have a shitty few months and think back to what they were taught as completely normal and fact-based and even desirable when they were younger, they'll turn to religion instead of getting some real help to deal with whatever problems they have. Even entirely rational, logical people have trouble letting go of the comforting aspect of the delusions of religion. I wouldn't my kids to have to take the chance. Teach them about others' beliefs - but never normalise them.

It doesn't actually matter whether the religious worship in schools is likely to indcctrinate or not. The fact remains that is outrageous that anyone should ever have to be even a nominal Christian to take a full part in the life of a tax payer funded institution.

As I am opposed to compulsory worship in schools, my child is currently the only one in his school who does not attend the religious elements of assembly (he attends on fridays for school announcements etc but leaves before prayers).

Even when I was a christian I considered it a waste of half an hour which could be better spent on actual education.

If everyone who doesn't want their children to be forced into "worship" (another debate there about how you can be compelled to actually worship...) did the same, then in all probability the law would change and it would no longer be compulsory.

YANBU, OP!

I hate this stuff too: also Scotland ,many children never done being preached to, told God made hurricanes because he was angry with someone(!)

All my protestations to schools and other parents age failed and made me viewed as "that parent".

I decided not to take them out of observance as they are told this stuff constantly in other classes anyway.

Despite all this, ds told me this morning that everyone in his class believed in God except him. So no harm done

Disclaimer: I do not foist my atheist views on my children, I tell them to make up their own minds.

I do agree with Smilla to an extent though. Dd is a bit vulnerable and was pursued by evangelical Christians at school and invited to a quite extreme to my mind, church, with Pastor Steve and free sweets, and I put my foot down at that.

These type of things are often sent out in school bags here too: how would your child fancy watching a skateboard display - religious; attending a fun after school club, etc, etc.

No faith group other than Christian has ever to my knowledge spoken to any school in these parts, nor have the children been to any other religious observance/mosque, etc.

I hold the same views regarding the practising of religions in schools and considered withdrawing my DC too. However - there are other things at school that you won't agree with eg, sexism is ingrained in our society and therefore our schools IMO. I disagree with having lots of external rewards and sanctions too. And I disagree with schools giving sweets and/or non-educational gifts (they're schools - they ought to be promoting a love of education not trying to avoid it or apologise for it). I'm not a fan of children getting much homework either - or the pressure to waste spend time organising 'costumes' for world-book day, topic days etc.

In short, if you withdraw them from religious assemblies etc, you might inadvertently be discouraging your DC to accept the authority of the school or to accept other beliefs/ values unquestioningly because you haven't withdrawn them from those other 'practices'.

FWIW - I believe that all religions probably offer values and lifestyle choices that are basically healthy and wise - IMO the original leaders were probably excellent psychologists who understood what is required to live in a community harmoniously. As you know, it's a fact of history that this country is/was broadly Christian - it's fine to explain that to your DC IMO. FWIW.

You could still campaign to have fully secular schools without withdrawing your DC.

To summarise my advice - YANBU but you might not be behaving wisely by withdrawing your DC.

Make sure you are aware of implications of withdrawing

• what will they be doing instead
• does that mean they will also not take part in nativity plays, carol concerts, harvest festival etc.

You may not be allowed to pick and choose.

Talk to the school. My DDs attend Scottish primary school and there is no religion involved in assembly. The do church services at Christmas and Easter, parents are invited and there is no praying and minimal religious content - nativity play (with modern updates) presented as a story and then lots of talk about christmas, helping others, being thankful for presents etc, while Easter is mostly about the children singing and playing instruments and talk about the Easter bunny! Religion is taught as the different belief systems around the world, in no way is one system promoted above another. I say this as a non-practicing Sikh.

My parents did not want me to be taught religion as fact and considered withdrawing me from religious worship. They didn't, and I am glad they didn't. The few children who were withdrawn did stand out and seen as different. I would let them take part, unless they get to the age when they decide themselves that they don't want to take part.

I just find the casual acceptance that only Christians can take a full part in the life of a state school extraordinary! It just goes to show how deeply ingrained the idea of Christian privilege is in this country.

I have asked EYFS and KS1 staff not to present Father Christmas as fact either, FWIW.

If the compulsory "act of collective worship" didn't already exist, there isn't the tiniest chance it could be introduced nowadays. The only reason it persists is because "it's always been this way and has never hurt anyone and you can withdraw if you reeeeeeeeally want to". Frankly that isn't good enough.

I was removed from assemblies for a while, I don't have any negative memories of it. I will definitely be considering it for my son depending on how he goes when he starts school

YANBU.

I am not sure I agree with the following " Schools do not allow children to be proselytised - they just teach about different religions. It's not scary and your child won't catch anything" they teach praying, that's not fantastic if you are an Atheist.

I officially withdrew my boy, then spoke at length with his teacher to sort out the details. He may not be asked to pray at any time. He may not be sent to take part in visits from religious groups. He may not be asked to sing hymns.

He may, however, take part in classwork including study of any and all religions. He may take part in diwali dancing, nativity plays (or as he described it "play when Maisie had a baby and we all danced and Kyron was my camel"), and such things as long as it's presented as a story not a fact.
I warned her that he is aware that Father Christmas is just a nice story too and that most of the other children think it's real and to be ready to jump in if he forgot that it's rude to tell them that they're wrong.

Iirc, ItsAllGoingToBeFine , you live in the North of Scotland and as such in a much less multi-cultural environment than, say, Glasgow.

As such, there is probably still a historically strong link with the local church and depending on where you are, still a very Christian/Church of Scotland emphasis.

You probably need to talk to the HT to see what their view is and then make a judgement. You'll probably get a feel at the settling-in days if they do them. Do you know anyone with kids already at the school?

I never felt the need to withdraw ds from "collective worship": as a multi-cultural school (60% ethnic minorities, mostly Muslim but some Sikhs and Hindus), the teachers were very sensitive to all the faiths and none . There was on average one assembly a term: one for each of the major faiths represented (Nativity, Eid and Diwali - and then a Leavers' Assembly) and it was very much integrated into RME along the lines of "this is what some people believe". Very much along the lines of CfE - before it even existed.

Someone mentioned why RME has to specify "Moral" Education separately from Religion. I have a different take (although I might have misunderstood the poster): to me they have to be mentioned separately because it is perfectly possible to be "moral" without being religious. Religion doesn't have a unique hold on morality.

As an atheist I really don't want to be like 'those parents' who indoctrinate their children with any belief or non-belief.

I encourage my ds to think for himself so I enjoy asking him about assembly etc.. We can then discuss it rationally

Eg - God made the rainbow - let me show you how white light when seen through a prism defracts into the separate colours of the rainbow, this is what happens when sun shines through raindrops - ds what do you think ?

Etc..

I kind of love the fact that he goes back into school and discusses all this with his friends! I like to think I am encouraging free thinkers in more than just my own house :)

I think a multi cultural school is very different. This sounds like an old fashioned "secular" school with Christian worship. The kind I went to as a child.

I don't want my DC to pray, at school or any other time, because I think it's insulting to Christianity to say Christian prayers if you're not Christian.

My DC aren't lapsed Christians. They're atheists. I think it's extremely rude to Christianity to ask them to go along with prayers for a while.

I'm not scared my DC will catch religion. I just don't want to insult religious peoples beliefs.

If we did practise the religion of their grandparents it would be insulting Christianity even more.

In Scotland each state catchment area has a Catholic school and non Catholic (which is now supposed to be secular)
I think there is only one Jewish school in Scotland.
Until about 1980 you could withdraw a child from sex education but not religious observance ( one teacher I had made the whole class regardless of religion do Christian prayers every moring, my dad did have a word with the school but couldnt stop this)
Anyway since 1980 s there is a statutory right to withdraw children from religious observance.
See 13-15 in this 2005 document from Scottish Executive.
www.gov.scot/Resource/Doc/37428/0023554.pdf

I've got to be honest, I would be cross if my children were being told things like 'God made hurricanes because he was angry' or 'God made rainbows' for whatever reason. That's just ignorance, as far as I'm concerned.

As an atheist, I was never concerned about the level of religious observance my children were subjected to, because it always seemed minimal and just paying lip service to the law. I would certainly have had considered withdrawing them if there had been anything more. It does seem as if there is an evangelical element creeping into some state schools and that would have been unacceptable to me.