AIBU to be THAT parent? (Religious Observance)

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

In school, I think it is very important to learn about all world religions, for education, tolerance, historical perspective etc

However, I strongly object to praying/worshipping/being taught belief as fact.

Would it be really unreasonable to withdraw DD from the latter? (Scotland)

Being a non-denominational school does not guarantee that religion is not pushed. There is a primary school near to me (lucky for me not the one my DCs do/did attend). The HT was very religious and as a result there was a lot more overt religion being added to the assemblies, with the local vicar coming in very often.

Once this HT moved on and a new one arrived, things changed and the levels of overt religion dropped. I have a friend who works there, and what she told me was corroborated by taking a look at the school website.

I'm atheist myself, and I've led my DCs into questioning things. If they want to take up a religion later on that will be their choice.

OP, unless you have a particularly religious head, the religious element in a scottish primary will be negligible. They very much focus on being ethical and moral, and don't tend to link it with religion.

Even though they have a school chaplain and have a xlose relationahip with local church minister and deacon?

I'm a bit but its also a matter of principle to me. And if enough parents did withdraw their children from RO then maybe the law would be changed, and withdrawing DD could be a small part of this. I believe there should be a complete separation of church and state, and its pretty ridiculous that in the 21st century there isn't. I really object to things like the assumption that moral values can only come from Christianity, and the fact there are unelected church members in the city council who get a vote. The whole thing is wrong, but if people just go meh, and ignore it, it's not going to change. But I think it is probably selfish of me to sacrifice DD for the greater good...

School choice is a red herring.

OP I had similar concerns when pfb started school because I had no idea they would actively worship at a community school. I am an active Christian and do not like the way Christianity is pitched to the children at our school. I am having to undo so much.

I wrote to the head asking for clarification of how the school interprets its obligations (am in England) but without saying what our position is. I was reassured by her reply.

Just ask.

You won't be sacrificing her for the greater good, you'll be sacrificing her as a matter of principle. It won't change anything because most atheists aren't that bothered and most people aren't aheists. As a matter of interest (I'm an atheist) are you going to ask for her to be excluded from things like the carol singing and the nativity play, assemblies when the minister has come to talk and other false belief stuff like anything to do w Father Christmas?

Clearly it is your decision as parents and no one else's, OP, but there really is only a relatively short time when DC will take anything teacher tells them as being irrefutable fact (and I mean anything, from "Jesus turned water into wine" to "fat is bad for you" and everything inbetween), before they will become their own, questioning, cynical people - and if you fill them full of a full range of myths and legends from all religions and none at home then it will soon dilute the ones that they get at school. IMHO.

"If enough parents did withdraw their children from RO then maybe the law would be changed"

That is so very unlikely to happen as it has much wider implications to do with the relationship of church and state. French schools are secular because they had a revolution!

School choice is a red herring in some respects - (i.e. we really all have very little choice) but in the case of an approach to the statutory requirements its about seeing which school's ethos you are most comfortable with (if you can get a place there). Ours is super-inclusive/not very godly, and lots of JW children attend. The primary up the road takes their year R kids to get their teddies baptised in the first term. Seriously. So talking to the head and getting a feel for their approach is key if this is important to you.

The sense of being fully part of the school's community is more important to your daughter at this point than your political principles, just now.

If you feel that strongly then of course you should ask if your dc can withdraw. My dc go to Christian faith school as did I and I think there are other children who don't participate in some stuff. My Df was non - Christian and, before ww2 even, was allowed non - participation. He chuckled that he always got home early on Fridays! He became an atheist BTW.

Kato Think of it needing to be called Religious and Moral Education because there aren't any morals in religions so they need to be specified separately...

Don't worry OP - by the time she is 13 your DD will be rolling up her skirts and flicking her hair at anything that moves. Nothing in her psyche will relate to the 'religion' she 'learned' at primary school I can assure you.

by the time she is 13 your DD will be rolling up her skirts and flicking her hair at anything that moves.

Over my dead body!

Zipzap

Actually, when DS started school, I was a bit unimpressed with one paragraph in the welcome-to-this-school letter we got, which said something along the lines of 'respecting all beliefs but bringing children to the awareness of a loving god'. And there is at least one utter buckethead of a Born Again in the school as every year they support Samaritan's Fucking Purse, despite me having complained in writing three times on the grounds that not only is it a racist scam but highly unsuitable for this particular school which is hugely diverse (and maintained, not a church school).
But in general, they don''t make too big a deal out of it. The kids have been to church, a mosque, a Sikh temple, a synagogue and a Hindu temple (I am waiting for the day trip to a stone circle...) and DS, certainly, comes home mildly interested and un-traumatized, though he doesn't like RE.

It's worth asking, politely, OP, and keeping an eye on things.

I'd have a chat with the HT. The amount of religious observance in schools can vary hugely in Scotland. According to the CfE guidelines there only have to be six occasions where religious observance takes place during the course of an academic year. And not all of them have to be Christian. This may be of help.

www.educationscotland.gov.uk/Images/roletter_tcm4-650445.pdf

Some schools only provide the minimum, others will provide much more.

Op, I can understand your concerns as I am also in Scotland, and live in a town where a primary school was found to be teaching extremist Christian doctrine (Creationism as fact, etc.) The head teacher and some of the school management were forced to resign after a leaflet was sent home which contained extremist beliefs and parents became aware of what their children were being taught.

I would say see how your dd feels. My DC have been at school for two and three years, ds is seven and says he doesn't believe in God, dd isn't sure but doesn't seem to be upset at all, just thinking through what she believes.

Their behaviour tells me that the school can't be forcing religions practice on them, as they aren't worried about anything, just bored by assembly.

By contrast, when I was a child I was forced to take part in daily worship (prayers and weekly assemblies with prayers) and I was frightened of shutting my eyes and bowing my head, I used to have panic attacks because we were told God was in the room with us and I felt terrified.

If I'd told my mum she would have asked for me to be withdrawn which would have been wonderful, but we didn't talk about it so she didn't know. So please talk to your dd about how she feels, she is likely not to have a problem but if she feels as I did you will be able to help her.

I agree with you op that there should be no connection between religion and schools. Faith and education are two different things.

I heard about that school Coffee. In contrast, the school that my DCs attend has very little collective worship. It just shows how different they can be.

Always amused by the people of faith on threads like this with their "oh, a little bit of Christianity won't hurt - lighten up" approach. It would be interesting if they were as relaxed about their children taking part in a little bit of voodoo, or goddess worship........

or even a little bit of atheism

And the "so you dont celebrate Easter/Christmas then OP" line with a blissful unawareness of the origins of these festivals...

I am an atheist/humanist Hakluyt and I take that view - mine have even been to church and Sunday school (with my mum) - none of them are religious now they are older

funnily enough I was raised in a Christian church going family - I sang in choir and helped in Sunday school - and grew into a well rounded none believer

have a bit of faith that you have some influence on your kids to balance out school - and that your kids will ultimately make their own minds up - just as you don't want religion taught as fact maybe they also have the right to their own beliefs

I don't think it's worth getting worried about but if the OP feels strongly that is their choice

I don't think a bit of Christiantity will hurt either, as a matter of fact. It's just the earth shattering arrogance of people of faith who see no problem at all with their particular beliefs taking priority, and everyone's children having to conform to them if they are to take a full part in the life of any tax payer funded school........... It's quite breath taking.

I didn't ask if you celebrated Christmas or Easter OP, I asked you what you views were about carol singing and the nativity play (both connected strongly to the religious aspects of Christmas) and the discussion of Father Christmas as a real person, much in the way you fear God being taught as being real.

Well this brings back memories...

My parents never really mentioned religion but even at a young age I thought it was all a bit odd. I remember aged eight having a (very rare, I was a very well behaved kid) argument with teachers about why should I pray in assembly when I didn't believe? It was the only thing I was ever in trouble for, a dogged and smiling refusal to close eyes , hands together and bow head. Nope. Not doing it.

I think you just need to do a couple of things. Firstly, just make sure your school is doing the usual watery c of e stuff and not actually ramming belief down kids throats. If it's the former, kiddo is probably fine.

Secondly, just keep up the critical thinking at home. talk about how advertising works, for example. Make them think for themselves. Make sure that while respect for others is emphasised, they know that teachers are not always right and don't have all the answers. No religion or ideology can stand up to any degree of critical thinking and logic and it stands your kids in good stead to understand things like advertising too.

Sorry barbarianmum that wasn't a dig at you - its something I have seen come up on other threads. In answer to your question no problem with carol singing (no different to Puff the Magic dragon really, just stories with a nice tune). Also no problem with Nativity presented as an Xmas related story, would have an issue if it was presented as historical fact as as some sort of historical reenactment.

I think my issues are (and this thread is really helping me figure this out):

-the non-separation of church and state - but nothing I do as an individual will impact this, as a PP said, it would take a revolution...So putting that aside...

-Anything that says religion is fact, a God does exist. So praying is out, as is bible stories being presented as historical fact (I'm picking on Christianity as school has links with local CofS minister etc, applies to any religion)

-Anything that implies that not being Christian makes you a lesser or bad person. So phrases like instilling Christian values/morals aren't great.

-I think attending a service would be ok, if children were thoroughly briefed beforehand as it being an example of how some people express beliefs, and that praying not required, as opposed to it being something everyone does.

-Peer pressure can be a bugger. When I started in P5 at a non-denom school I remember the shame if being the only person in the class who did not know the lords prayer. Lords prayer was said every morning, grace at school lunch prayers at assembly, and taken to church for major Christian events. Learning about other religions involved visiting all the churches in the town...

school is meant to be a place where everyone is treated fairly and taught stuff that is true for all of them - i.e. facts.

I disagree with this for a start. School isn't about teaching facts: it's about helping students learn to think for themselves and develop knowledge.

This issue crops up frequently on MN and I honestly believe that most people are worrying unnecessarily. While there may be the occasional devout fundamentalist Christian teacher determined to convert his or her unsuspecting class, most teachers think rather like the rest of us in a rather fuzzy agnostic way, or are even atheists themselves. Hell, most vicars question the exact nature of God that's what theology is all about. And I doubt that there is a single CofE vicar who taked Genesis literally.

I think it is very rare that children are taught 'belief as fact'. Mostly they are taught Biblical stories, which they tend to believe on the same level as they believe in fairy stories or myths from other religions. They may talk about them as if they think they are 'fact', but then again, I have had many totally serious-sounding conversations with my children about fairies, aliens, and time-travel. As the children grow older and hear these stories again, they may acquire more or less meaning for them. They key is that they are encouraged to think about them, discuss them, and draw conclusions about how we should behave and treat other people.

I don't think a bit of Christiantity will hurt either, as a matter of fact. It's just the earth shattering arrogance of people of faith who see no problem at all with their particular beliefs taking priority, and everyone's children having to conform to them if they are to take a full part in the life of any tax payer funded school........... It's quite breath taking.

Sorry ItsAll I'm being professionally got at at work today and its clearly rubbing off where it shouldn't

It's a bugger, isn't it? On the other hand I had quite a religious education by modern standards and it (plus a bit of scepticism at home) helped me develop my non-beliefs very well. Ultimately, exposing your dd to a lot of different beliefs will help her develop her critical thinking.

Speak to the school. Mine are withdrawn from religious observance (not religious education). They and around 50 other kids go with a couple of members of staff and they learn exactly what the kids in assembly are doing, but with a "Christian's believe" slant rather than a "we believe" or "this is fact" slant. It's a far better option imo, and should be how everything is taught.

The fact that non-denominational are not non-denominational bugs the life out of me.