AIBU to be THAT parent? (Religious Observance)

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

In school, I think it is very important to learn about all world religions, for education, tolerance, historical perspective etc

However, I strongly object to praying/worshipping/being taught belief as fact.

Would it be really unreasonable to withdraw DD from the latter? (Scotland)

Yes, non-denominational, non-faith state school here and there is definitely proselytising and Christian worship, not just in assembly and on church visits, sometimes at the random whim of the class teacher too.

When DS started school I was very worried and felt the same as you OP, but I've become more cynical. Worship is a lot less interesting when you have to sit through our school's tiresome Christmas and Easter services and hear about how god made everything, than if you're excluded from it and wonder what it's all about. We discuss it all with DS, what it is, why people believe it, why we don't, other religions, atheism etc and that he is free to make his own mind up. I now honestly believe that is the best approach for raising a rational person (and I do also sincerely feel that it is his own choice to make).

I do still think religion taught has fact has no place in any school system and I campaign against it, but since it's there, a "meh" attitude can be quite helpful!

Stacey I certainly didn't mention 'nutters' and I used 'evil atheists' because you were basically calling us bigots, implying we are scared of religious people.

Just because I don't want my children worshiping in school. Why should there be worship in schools? What is the reason? A good one; for all the children.

Yes Stacey I think the difference is that school is meant to be a place where everyone is treated fairly and taught stuff that is true for all of them - i.e. facts. One religion isn't true for everyone and teaching a religion as dogma has nothing to do with factual education. There are churches for anyone who wants to go and be indoctrinated in any particular brand of evidence-free belief they like. If all kids could go to school without indoctrination in any particular religion, they would all be being treated fairly. As it is, some have to either be exposed to one particular religion, or arrange to be excused and be seen as odd and different or having awkward parents.

Actually, I think that seeing/experiencing HOW people worship is educational in itself. Doesn't mean she will grow up believing that. Surely that's what lots of us experienced growing up in the UK, and we're not on the whole a religious bunch.
I have travelled and lived abroad most of my adult life and have enjoyed joining in religious worship on occasions, it's an interesting insight into culture. And I imagine my comfort in doing so is in some way connected to exposure of religious practice whilst growing up (also Church of Scotland).

I've traveled all over the world and been invited into people's home and ceremonies and felt entirely comfortable. I was raised by atheists. Three generations of them here.

Fair enough, I just don't see the harm in it.

It's entirely reasonable to have concerns about it because schools vary a lot in exactly how much religion they push on kids, and it's not necessarily easy to tell beforehand what's going to be on offer. Some designated 'faith' schools, particularly those in multicultural areas, are fairly low key. Sometimes schools which are not officially faith schools can have one or two teachers determined to push religion to the point of causing small kids some distress (eg telling them that Jeeezuz is always watching them which can be frightening - or suggesting that their beloved uncle will go to hell because he is married to another man or whatever). It's no big deal for DC to have to sit through religious stuff and be quiet and polite, though too much of it is a waste of school time,but if they are being pressured to participate rather than respectfully observe then that's not really on.

We ALL know you're crossing over to the dark side SGB so don't even try that

I don't think it is unreasonable to be concerned, and proselytizing in state schools shouldn't be allowed anyway - but I think it matters less than you think it does.

We're in France where state schools are strictly secular. However for various practical reasons my children ended up attending a private - which in France equals Roman Catholic - primary school. (We are non-believers although DH is Roman Catholic by background.) While there was no proselytizing in lessons (that would be illegal here) there was notionally optional religious indoctrination by nuns, which my DD enthusiastically embraced. She even did catechism classes and at one point sincerely wanted to be baptized so she could do her first communion with her friends.

She left that school 3.5 years ago and these days she is a committed and fairly militant atheist... I suspect she is far more militant than she would have been if she'd not been exposed to proselytizing at school (given that at home she is exposed only to mild atheism of the "completely disinterested in religion" variety).

I went to a verrrrrry religious secondary school (11-18) RE was a compulsory GCSE subject, every day started with prayers, we all trooped down to the local church every week for service, the local vicar conducted assemblies etc etc. I participated fully in every aspect.

However, I am, and always have been, an atheist. As are my parents and my siblings.

I very much doubt that your child thinks of any religious teachings as anything more than words.

That link above applies to england in Scotland the education scotland website is a bit woolier in it's mention of religion in schools. The curriculum for excellence is far more vague. Religion varies hugely from school to school.
In my dc school they have weekly assemblies that don't include overt religion. The head takes them. A few times a term the school chaplain or a n other Minster type person from another church or denomination in the area comes in to do an assembly for the school. They have a pretty good balance I think.
The only thing you can do is ask the school. At our school there is nobody removed from assemblies and we do have several denominations here.

Would you withdraw from christmas plays and things as well because I have know parents in a different school to withdraw children then complain they weren't participating in the nativity

My dcs went to CofE infant and junior schools - prayers,bible stories, church services, visiting clergy, etc. Both are now atheist, or at least agnostic teenagers. At home they have had no "militant atheism" as my faith has varied from catholicism when they were very small to total atheism to just not caring anymore agnostic, while their father is nominal, non-practising and disinterested CofE. We have both left them to decide for themselves whilst being honest about our own beliefs/lack thereof when asked.

I don't think indoctrination at (day) school really works unless it is backed up at home. Ultimately your children will come to their own beliefs which may change over time depending on their personality. As they are clearly being parented by skeptics I wouldn't be too concerned about them catching religion in any serious and lasting way - except maybe as a form of teenage rebellion if you make it a big issue.

You're really worrying about nothing if your child is going to a non denominational school.

No that's not true. Individual class teachers in our non-faith, state scottish primary have inflicted their beliefs on small DC in a way that can be very scary and is totally unnecessary - like teaching all the gory details of the crucifixion in P1 to the point that DS had nightmares.

You're really worrying about nothing if your child is going to a non denominational school.

I agree, I thought about withdrawing them when they started school, the school had 'religious' assemblies every now and then, and once my daughter came home proclaiming that 'rich people can't go to heaven' because the deputy head had said so in assembly. I was furious.

However, we left it, they didn't want to be singled out, and are growing up in a household where we all have a healthy disregard for all religions.

I recently worked in a non denominational school. The collective act of worship is very Christian based. It's every day, a talk by the teacher or an assembly with prayer and quotes from the Bible. Quite influential to children.

As a parent, I'd have no problem if they did a theme every week with Monday taking the Christian viewpoint, Tuesday Buddhist, weds Muslim etc. Or first half term Christianity, second Jewish etc. I believe that knowledge of religious breeds tolerance. But I do disagree with children being forced to participate in the religious observance of one religion every day all through school, which is what is happening with the collective act of worship.

A mild Christian tone is not fascinating to children. Just tell children that teachers are not right about everything. This will set you up nicely for explaining when teachers put apostrophes in the wrong place and say "I" when they mean "me".

MrsTP, there's no daily act of collective worship in scottish nondenominational schools. At most schools there may be a "service" at the end of each term and that's it.
OP, unless you have a particularly religious head, the religious element in a scottish primary will be negligible. They very much focus on being ethical and moral, and don't tend to link it with religion. Even the end of term services at our school had Easter and christmas "songs" with no hint
Of Jesus.

Personally, I think they will be fine with a healthy dose of cynicism coming from home. I am agnostic, with a strong antipathy to organised religion. My DC are in an independent school which has a declared CofE ethos (chapel a couple of times a week, bible stories, etc). Yes, in the early years they do learn lots of bible stories as "fact" but I have always compared them to other myths and gone for the "some people believe...." approach, rather than withdrawing them. Now (Y8) my DC1 sings in chapel choir, but really enjoys RS, taught by the school chaplain "because it's really fun to argue science vs religion with him" . I think they will both go on to make their own decisions about their beliefs, which is all I want.

I would draw the line at creationism, though - my DC learned the story of the creation, but they also learn about evolution - one as a story, the other as science.

Tbh I think even if you opt out of the assembly / worship / whatever term they use there'll be religious stuff thrown in at various places throughout the day with impromptu prayers etc... (Is at my dcs school.) So it would be very difficult to impose a blanket ban and your child might end up feeling a bit singled out.

I'd opt to keep an ongoing discussion with your daughter on the subject.

FWIW, a few weeks ago my dcs's school asked them who created all the plants, trees, animals, etc...... The answer was god did! (Said unequivocally as the truth - I was there. Clearly some confusion amongst the children present about this but no-one dared question it, myself included.) However my eldest knows this is nonsense and helped me educate youngest on evolution for 5-10 minutes after school was out. Have frequent rants about the subjects chosen for religious instruction.

Asked about it the school will say it is presented as "what some people believe", but it isn't.

MrsTerry, it is compulsory that the worship takes place; it is not compulsory to take part. Many schools, including mine, approach prayer with phrases such as, "We are now going to say a prayer. You may join in if you wish, or just sit quietly and think about what we were discussing" or "I am going to say a prayer. If you want to make it your prayer too, join in with the 'amen' at the end."
I would have no problem with my daughter listening to an imam, or indeed any other religious leader, praying.

Whilst I agree it is ridiculous that a contemporary society schools are not secular in a contemporary society, I would say:

1. Choose your school wisely - the "acts of worship" are very low key and more about "broadly Christian values" at our school, one of the reasons we chose it. They seem to sing vague stuff about "being a friend" instead of anything you'd call a hymn. Also our school won't force participation, children can sit quietly and respectfully and not sing/pray (if and when that is happening), perhaps as you might if attending a funeral or wedding?

1. I strongly believe that parents are their children's main educators. They will get their values and understanding from you.

1. Withdrawing them does not create a good and strong sense of their belonging in the school community.

The OP's questions are not unreasonable (or unusual) and it's daft, and unhelpful, to imply that she has some kind of horror that her kids will mix with kids of other religions, or catch Islam.

OP, I think all you can really do is ask your particular school for more info, without trying to make a big thing of it (I know what you mean about being THAT parent) or maybe talk to other parents you known wih kids already there? I think it's true that what kids learn at home on these sort of subjects generally has more impact than what they hear in assemblies and the like.

I want my children to learn about different religions but like you said I feel very uncomfortable with them being taught religion as truth. The fluffy stuff they teach in my DC primary is inoffensive and mainly about being kind to each other but it's the stuff from the actual bible, the plagues the smiting, the hellfire and homophobia that worries me. I was raised a Christian and found that very disturbing as a child. My DC go to a faith school as there were no places in non-dom schools for miles around but the staff know we're atheists and I tell the DC to look at the teaching they have on Christianity in the same way they look at teaching on the religions of the ancient Egyptians or Greeks.