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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think it is infuriating that I will be written off as po-faced when I want to protest about the objectification and sexualisation of women??

131 replies

Mintyy · 15/03/2015 11:38

see here

This makes me feel sad and angry in equal measure.

But I know lots of people will say I am old-fashioned, jealous, bitter, anti-women for expressing this. I feel most definitely that if I want to object to this sort of marketing, I will have negative comments made about me and my looks and personality flung at me as a way to shut me up!

Makes me mad, it does.

OP posts:
GraysAnalogy · 15/03/2015 14:42

Minty give over. You did sound silly. Cotton knickers are a-okay but the lacy frillies aren't?

GibberingFlapdoodle · 15/03/2015 14:48

This kind of underwear is sexual though isn't it? Why else is it sold to men? That doesn't in itself say it is wrong to wear it -in the appropriate circumstances, by choice.

'Not being coerced into their jobs' no, but are they not being sold , have they not been sold, the idea all their lives that they are only valuable for their sexuality?

"How can we empower women to be less subservient... and tell the what to do at the same time?" The feminist's paradox. How can we fight a pattern of behaviour, misogyny, and not tell people how to behave?

You really would be very welcome on the feminist boards. We can only find solutions for these problems when everyone is on board.

Thank you for the idea that I'm charming Blush

Mintyy · 15/03/2015 14:49

"I see more women putting other women down then men do"

I find that extremely hard to believe. Is there a way to prove it I wonder?

OP posts:
kewtogetin · 15/03/2015 14:49

God forbid a woman should be proud of her body and like showing it off, no, she must only be doing that because she's been forced into it by a man or she has dreadfully low self esteem that needs bolstering by prancing round in her shreddies.....
Maybe they gasp enjoy being models???

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 15/03/2015 14:50

Gibbering... That is a conundrum and it's an interesting one. What do we know as fact? The models are paid and choose this career? They agree to wear the clothing provided? They agree to pose as directed? They have the option NOT to do these things but choose to of their own freewill? Do we concede that?

What do you say about men selling sexuality? Those aftershave adverts are the closest thing I can think of. I don't like them. I think you can sell perfume and aftershave with a nice soundtrack (usually by Mina, for D&G) and no hint of sex.

I'd never tell anybody to shut up and put up but what are you actually doing about it? Those who buy that type of underwear buy it because they want to. If I liked it, I'd buy it - but not because of the advert. I'd try it if it appealed and if it suited/fit me comfortably, then it might become my type of underwear. Seeing models wearing it won't encourage me or discourage me.

What do you actually want to achieve and how is that going to happen? That is what I'm asking... is it just a rant on a chatboard or is it actually part of a movement that has a specific purpose? A the moment, it looks to me as if it's an attack on women because all parties and responders happen to be women.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 15/03/2015 14:51

Mintyy... Come here often, do you? Pick a thread, nearly any thread...

GibberingFlapdoodle · 15/03/2015 14:53

Grays, kew, why are women only proud of their sexuality? Why is it only sexuality that is something to be proud of? We all have it after all. We all also have other traits to be proud of it, yet those are all buried.

GraysAnalogy · 15/03/2015 14:55

I said nothing about pride, I said about showing it. We get put down for showing it, for embracing it.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 15/03/2015 14:55

You are charming, Gibbering and I keep cross-posting with you.

I don't disagree with what you're saying... but I have no idea who we would fix this and I think I'm not articulate enough for the feminist board. I think I'd end up arguing and disagreeing with points that actually I would stand behind entirely.

MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 15/03/2015 15:02

Modelling underwear for the purposes of selling underwear to those who wish to buy it = fine and dandy.

Modelling underwear for the sole purpose of titillation to get a few more column inches to help sell you product = dubious and borderline inappropriate.

The question we should be asking is "who is the image aimed at?". In this case the target audience is not people who might want to buy underwear. The target audience are the kind of people who get excited by seeing sexualised images of women and the kind of publications who would publish the image to either be horrified by it or titillated by it. Neither of which is very good for women or indeed society in general.

Three, almost naked, cold looking women outside Buck Palace wouldn't encourage me or anyone I know to buy underwear and I like cute/sexy/fun underwear. I buy myself nice underwear and I am persuaded by things like ethical/responsible marketing (a tiny bit), how good my boobs will look (a lot), whether I can buy two pairs of good looking yet comfortable pants for a reasonable price to go with my bra (a lot).

I don't want to look cheap, I want to look sexy and those images were cheap because they were incongruous in the context. If they had been pictured in a bedroom or a changing room or anywhere you expect to see a woman in a state of undress that would have been ok. Cold, uncomfortable looking women is not sexy, not empowering and not representative of real women.

MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 15/03/2015 15:08

"How do we fix it?" is an excellent question. I think the first thing is to articulate that it isn't right and why. Mintyy's made a pretty good start by encouraging the discussion here.

As individuals we can try to use our ethical principles to guide our shopping habits a bit more. In general that is A Good Thing and not hugely arduous for most people.

More long term, proactive things we can do to combat the unnecessary fetishisation of women and the commodification of the female form would include things like campaigning against Page 3 and Lads's Mags with soft porn images being on display in shops. There are petitions to sign for both of those. Other things we can do include incouraging businesses and other organisations we work for and use not to engage with organisations who participate, endorse or collude in the objectification of women.

GibberingFlapdoodle · 15/03/2015 15:11

They choose to of their own freewill, out of the limited range of options available to us, yes.

It is difficult to imagine a world of gender equality because we don't have it. If the models had been encouraged from day one to pick other careers which were equally rewarding - gave them equal fulfillment of other traits, equal pay, equal travel, whatever - would they have picked the one that relies on selling their physical selves?

Men selling sexuality - I don't particularly like it, or the specific image of sexuality they sell. I chose my life partner on grounds other than sexuality and unless I'm mistaken research shows most women do. The whole idea of selling on sexuality perpetrates the belief that sexuality alone matters imo.

What I'd like to see is gender equality, where women and men are not judged on their sexuality except with those they choose to be. In practical terms I'd like to see women and men acknowledged equally responsible for children, equally responsible for consensual sexual encounters, an absolute halt (in ideal world) to non-consensual sexual encounters of all kinds.

How to go about it, that's the question isn't it. The chat boards are there to support women who get fed up of seeing sexism in everyday life as well as to try and find solutions. Supporting other women who think that women are valuable in non-sexual ways is important as individually we're all easily run-down ourselves and dismissed by others. There are some men on there, though it's true it's mostly women. I don't see many attacks on other women at all. Mostly I learn on there.

This is an attempted response to LyingWitch btw. Now what else has come up while i've been attempting to think? Smile

kewtogetin · 15/03/2015 15:11

Sexuality is indeed something to be proud of, one of many things I'm proud of but short of wearing a shirt that says 'I have a PhD' or showing people my amazing womb that housed my children I'm not sure how I could demonstrate them? Stripping off is a pretty easy straightforward and obvious way to demonstrate something youre proud of.

MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 15/03/2015 15:16

Do men demonstrate they are proud of their sexuality? Or are they busy just getting on with stuff without feeling they need to prove how proud of themselves they are?

Why do women appear to need the validation but men don't?

GibberingFlapdoodle · 15/03/2015 15:16

more Blush . Should have added women and men to be equally accepted into whatever career they have aptitude for and choose.

You've seen how articulate I am in debates Grin... We're all on a learning journey.

Roussette · 15/03/2015 15:19

I don't think they looked cold or uncomfortable, I thought they looked at ease with their bodies (which were all beautiful) and that's great. Would everyone who finds this objectionable feel the same if it was David Beckham poncing about in his pants in front of Buck House?

I just can't see the problem and maybe I'm an advertisers dream because I liked one of the sets of underwear and would google the range to find it if I were so inclined.

Mintyy · 15/03/2015 15:38

The high in London yesterday was 7 degrees C. Just how could they not be cold??

I was cold because I went out without a coat, although was wearing a long sleeved t-shirt and thick cardigan.

Are you suggesting that they are some sort of fraeks of nature?

OP posts:
Samcro · 15/03/2015 15:42

love that some one calls me stupid, cos I don't agree.
what a peach

MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 15/03/2015 15:44

I think you have misread Samcro. It was your response that was called stupid, not you.

MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 15/03/2015 15:45

Not cold? The one on the right had a blueish tinge. Being pale myself I recognise it well.

kewtogetin · 15/03/2015 15:49

movingonup
Don't you remember this campaign at Christmas? I don't recall as much pearl clutching when this came out?
I'd say David gandy looks rather proud of himself wouldnt you?!

OneHandFlapping · 15/03/2015 15:54

I can't imagine David Beckham would have looked so ... impressive in his pants in yesterday's weather!

MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 15/03/2015 15:56

I don't recall that campaign no. Where was it promoted? It does look rather like he is lying on a bed there in his pants which is an expected place for someone to be so attired.

He doesn't look at all chilly though Wink

kewtogetin · 15/03/2015 16:07

movingonup
It surprises me that you don't recall it, given that it was a marks and Spencer's campaign, that bastion of sensible cotton underwear....

MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 15/03/2015 16:10

I think you have me confused with someone else. I have never mentioned sensible cotton underwear, I don't shop for underwear in M&S and if you glance up the thread you will see that I'm really not that kind of girl :)