to wonder why you would Christen your child

[BreacaBoudica]

When you're not a Christian yourself? Just got snapped at on FB for asking this of a girl on a forum who asked how she'd go about getting her baby Christened...

My point was - if you're a practising Christian ask at your local church - if you're not, why do it? (Phrased slightly more delicately)

I can't see why people do this - they don't randomly take their kids to mosques or synagogues asking to sign their kids up to other religions they don't follow themselves...

Is it just for a party?

Um, just to clarify folks... baptism and christening is the same thing.

cingolimama I didn't think anyone was confused about that, is there anyone who suggested they were not the same?

Of course in infant baptism/Christening there is the strong link to a naming ceremony while in an adult baptism although the person receiving baptism may choose another name it is normal to use your given name. Christening is usually associated with babies and children while the word Baptism covers all age groups.

Of course different Christian traditions and groups don't all have the same concept of what is happening at Baptism. For Catholics it is a sacrament for example. We also believe it actually changes you spiritually. Some other traditions believe it is purely symbolic.

You're right, heyli, I misread a couple of posts which seemed to be be confused. But it was just me!

Yabu. It's upto the individual and none of your business, you're not the christening police! Unless the person is totally illogical then they will have their reasons, which could be anything from being a closet believer to grandparents pressure to wanting a party. None of your business though!

Simply to get them best education in the area at the outstanding Catholic school. Their education is paramount and far outweighs my ambivalence about religion. I am more than prepared to be a hypocrite for them to do well academically.

My two are not christened and went to a church school.

I know someone who did that CPtart, I still don't really know how I feel about it TBH.
They were not Catholics themselves so not sure how that works either.

Um, just to clarify folks... baptism and christening is the same thing.

I am well aware of that, so aware that I use the two words interchangeably without even thinking about it. I didn't seed any posts where people (including myself) seem confused about the two words meaning the same thing. Surely everybody knows that a baptism and christening are the same thing and don't need it pointing out to them.

Yes, super, which is why I posted acknowledging my mistake. Mea culpa!

I find it odd too, but even more is odd is the huge number of non church goers who want to get married in Church. I find that even more hypocritical.

I am a Church goer myself but chose not to get married in Church as my (now ex ) DH was not a church attender. Interestingly the only person who tried to put pressure on me to have a church wedding was ex MIL - also not a Church goer - but wanted a big, showy day to 'impress' her friends. Not sure what they thought of the scout marquee in my parents' back garden .

I think the church is blackmailing people into signing up, with the promise of a better education. And the suckers are falling for it. Maybe your children will get better results, but so what. They will start their life living a lie and be exposed to all kinds of crazy beliefs. I think anyone who gets their kids Christened to get them into a better school is completely bonkers.

I don't think that's fair happybubblebrain. The religious entry criteria are supposed to be to help the schools maintain the Christian ethos of the school. The fact that parents lie to get around them is not the church's fault.

For Church of England schools baptism isn't regarded positively or negatively on the religious entry criteria. There's a disagreement about the theology around infant baptism where believers come to different but equally valid conclusions. Church attendance and involvement is what counts because that is more likely to show whether you really are committed to the church than a one off party (I know this isn't foolproof either).

Oh come on, the church has been bribing and blackmailing people since it began.

If you dont believe/come to church you will go to hell.
If you dont believe/come to church you will be burned as a witch.
If you dont believe/come to church you will be excluded from society.
If you dont believe/come to church youre a bad, immoral person.
If you dont believe/come to church you will live in poverty..
If you come to church youre more likely to win your asylum/immigration case.
If you dont come to church your children will have a poor education
etc. etc. etc.

I think its time people stood up this manipulation.

I'm not disputing that bad things have been done in the name of religion. However, how many of those are true today? Not many.

Your argument about heaven and hell is with what God says in the bible, by all means be angry with him if you want. But if anyone is saying that you get to heaven by being "moral" and going to church more they're wrong. Christians would be the first to say that none of us meet God's standards and it is only by his kindness that any of us are able to go to be with him after we die (because Jesus died to take the punishment for all the things we ever did wrong).

No one is forcing people to apply for places at faith schools. For what it's worth I think they should be open to all regardless of faith as long as the parents are willing to accept all the religious teaching that comes with being at that school. But while they aren't, I don't think people should game the system by having sham christenings to try to get a place (we probably agree on that ).

I think people have been brainwashed into thinking that it's one of those things that you really ought to do. It's become cultural as well as religious. Same as christmas (clue is in the word ) most people celebrate the festival (yule, pagan, pre-dates, yaddayadda), not the supposed birthday of the supposed son of god. I mean, some do, obviously, but many more just do it for santa and the gifts.

same as choosing a church wedding and promising to god that you'll be together forever. When you don't believe in god.

Or having a funeral in a church where you send someone's soul to a god neither you nor they believed in.

Or chomping a ridiculous number of chocolate eggs at easter instead of celebrating jesus coming back from the dead. You know, 40 days after eating lots of pancakes and subsequently making no daily prayers, fasting or short term sacrifices at all

People who don't do it because they have a faith and the promises mean something to them do it because of centuries of conditioning and because state is not separate from church and there's a massive overlap.

I don't care either way. I think if people want to do something, for whatever reason that makes sense to them, then let them crack on with it.

I am also puzzled by infant baptism - I've been to christenings and I simply could not have made the promises the parents have to make. I also absolutely do not believe that God would abandon a person who tries to begood just because s/he wasn'tt ready to be baptised yet before his/her sudden death..

I am a practising Christian. I chose baptism at 19 - that by no means stopped me from being married in church or being a godparent. DC were not baptised. We had a thanksgiving service for each of them, with attendant shindig.

Oh the earache from certain family cultural Christians that it wasn't a baptism. It would be their first time in church since our wedding, most likely, but we were doing it wrong Look, I never said that your way was wrong although I might have thought it so I would appreciate the same courtesy.

So I'm on the fence. I can see the arguments for christening even within non-religious households, but I subscribe to none of them.

I do a lot of baptisms as I'm a priest in a C of E church. I would say that the motives of many people who come to us for a baptism of their babies and children are mixed. Some are members of our church and it is a joyful celebration of welcome of a new member of our faith community. Most are not and are coming for a mixture of reasons; family expectation, tradition and desire for a naming ceremony and party are just some. Often and under the surface there is a sense of relooking at priorities and values as a result of becoming parents and that can include looking again at a faith that is part of a family heritage.

I do my best to offer a thanksgiving service to those with no Christian background as this does what it says, gives thanks for the birth of a baby and allows the story of the new family to be woven into the story of the parent's families. I love doing these services as I can make each one unique and special. Most want the baptism and once I've made it clear that they will have to affirm their Christian faith in public and make promises to bring up their children as Christians I leave it to their conscience about whether they want to go through with it. There are some that we never see again but a fair number come back to our family services which we designed for people with minimal knowledge of Christianity and absolutely no long hymns and boring sermons.

I can almost understand why non Christians have a Christening. There is a sense of wanting to give thanks to something for the birth of a child and a christening does fulfil this in some way. I still think it's a bit weird though.

In my circle the non churchgoers who wanted a Christening still believed in God, so I could understand that too.

What I really struggle with is the avowed atheists who insist on getting married in a Church. I met someone like this recently in a group situation. They went on and on about the hypocrisy of religion, complained about the COE's anti gay stance and then said they had got married in a Church. I just don't get that at all, if you don't believe in God and don't like the COE why do any of it?

Exactly, IsItTime. Surely they see that by engaging in the Church's rites they are endorsing it?

Because the British are notorious critics, whingers and moaners but actually like traditions and a bunfight.

My Ds was christened at 6 as he wanted to be... I am not religious..He is..I like he has faith in something

I was exposed to "All kinds of crazy beliefs" at a Catholic school. Yes I did well, and just ditched the religion bit the day I left. By 16 I had a mind of my own, and any brainwashing went out the window. Those "better results" however, enabled me to go to college and then uni.

Millions of people get good results without the crazy beliefs at normal schools.

I went to a Catholic school for 2 years as our sixth form joined with a Catholic sixth form. I was horrified by the opinions I heard there by the teachers - i.e. gay people are evil, women are less important than men etc. I'm so glad I was old enough to know better, but younger kids aren't and I feel sorry for all children at faith schools.

When I was a little girl, a more religious girl in my class ( her dad was a vicar) told me that I would go to Hell because I wasn't christened! Her reasoning was pretty much along the lines of " if your not a member, why would you be allowed in?". I was about 8 at the time, but this news tormented me well into my teens. I remember curling up on my bed and praying to be allowed to be a Christian even though I wasn't christened so that I wouldn't go to Hell! I was too embarrassed to talk to my mum and dad about it and all my angst eventually came out one evening when I blurted it all out whilst a bit tipsy to my parents - they were horrified!
Consequently all four of my children are christened, and in fact my sister and I both decided to be baptised as adults. I do go to church once a month and I do consider myself a Christian. But for me - I never wanted anyone to say to my kids the same that was said to me.

I applaud parents getting kids christened only so they have a chance to get in a better church school.

Stupid system. Subvert it.

Godparents are cool things to have. Otherwise I can't think of any reason. We're opting for a civil naming ceremony for our two youngest. Or possibly just getting a friend who's good at public speaking to make a little speech in the back garden with some drinks and a bouncy castle.... Basically I want them to have godparents / guardians. Not so keen on the religious bit. I think that's a path the kids should be able to choose for themselves.

We got our eldest christened under duress from my parents and I regret it. I felt like a complete hypocrite in church (DH and I are agnostic at best and didn't get married in a church), the vicar insisted on making the dullest 45 minute sermon so all the kids were screaming by the end of it and he refused to let my DH's Muslim best friend be involved in the service in anyway, let alone as a godparent. It was crap.

Quite a few of my London-friends are doing it to get their kids into church schools. That's not an issue in our area though.