To think that a five year old shouldn't answer back to their parents

[Pimmsoclocknow]

Just that really. My five year old is basically great, doing really well at school etc.

However, she answers back constantly to everything. Eg pick up your coat. I will in five minutes after doing something. No do it now.
We are having x for dinner. I don't want x. (Despite the fact that she loves it). Always has to have last word

I think that this is unacceptable and am sending her to her room when she answers back. But the message is not getting through and she carries on doing it.

I think that she shouldn't answer back to me and dh but given as she constantly does it I wonder if I am simply expecting too much from her.

It is draining for both dh and myself.

Mine is like that and I have just made the decision to stop telling her off. Completely. It's day 1 and so far it is v carefree.

She is polite to teachers and other adults but our relationship is being poisoned by contestant bickering and one upmanship so I am just... opting out. I don't know if it will help but something had to change.

Not sure if that would work for you but I felt it was worth a try.

I think your expectations are a bit high!

My 5yo DS seems to have decided overnight that he is Lord and Master and is PITA know it all.

Fortunately, he's also a good, funny, kind little man so we are being firm, refusing to accept rudeness and ignoring him the rest of the time

She's becoming a person in her own right and asserting herself in the way 5 year olds do. She sounds perfectly normal to me. She isn't being inappropriately rude to you, she's just pushing the boundaries in a healthy way.

I think YABU to punish her. You don't have to completely ignore it, just find a different strategy that stops it turning into a battle.

Hmmmm...fine balance. I think you are being a bit harsh in the examples you gave.

The coat one. 5 mins is ok, unless someone is coming round. Say you aren't going to remind her, but you will expect it to be done. If she doesn't do it in 10 min (give her a little leeway), then punishment.

The dinner one. Oh well, don't eat it then, there isn't anything else.

Ds2 can be very argumentative. Eg. "You are driving the wrong way, Mum." "Me, no I'm not. Why do you think that?" "We didn't come this way last week." "Yes, we did", "No, we didn't." I could probably get into a big discussion pointing out landmarks etc. but I just say, "I am not arguing about it with you." I was like that. I kind of loved arguments and disagreeing with people (and still do)!

There are other things which I would call 'answering back' and are more serious eg. "Can you get your shoes on? Quick, it's getting late!" and then a shouted "NO!". That's something which needs a serious chat. My kids are a bit older 6,6,9, but I have started coming down on them saying 'No' to me as I feel that is very inappropriate. They can certainly disagree/ negotiate eg..., 'But Mum...can I just finish watching this programme?' but not use 'No' when I ask them to do something because it is rude and disrespectful.

I think your expectations might be a bit high. Plus I think that the idea of "answering back" is a bit vague - it might be better to state your expectations in terms of what you actually want. E.g. "When I ask you to do something, I expect you to do it straight away". (I do think that's quite a high expectation for anyone, let alone a 5yo!) - you could explain it this way, or reduce expectations by making it easier while still encouraging the behaviour you want. Three ways - firstly hold her to the 5 minutes "OK then after this ONE game/whatever" and then after the game don't let her do anything else until it's done, second give her information that shows you understand her position - "Pause the TV and go and do it" "We'll wait for you, hurry up", third, avoid the situation entirely by getting into a habit of making sure she hangs it up as soon as she gets in before doing anything else.

We are having X for dinner - I don't want it - pretty typical 5yo stuff. We just ignore and/or say oh well, you'll be hungry then. Sometimes joke about making something really horrible like frog eye soup instead. They always eat it anyway. If you don't give the comments a reaction, then they stop doing it. Or you could instead say "That isn't a nice thing to say."

Last word - difficult to give an example without an example, but again I do think it's pretty typical. And sometimes children aren't very good at phrasing things when they are trying to explain/defend themselves and it comes across as cheekiness when really they just think that you don't understand. You can help that by repeating back to them their feelings/position (to show you do understand) but also repeating the rule (e.g. You were angry with Michael. But we don't hit when we are angry. We use words to tell the person how we feel.)

Very important for children to answer back and not be "trained" that they must do what they're told to do. Admitteldly, it's quite hard to get anything done though!

drkellyflanagan.com/2013/11/06/the-reason-every-kid-should-talk-back-to-their-parents/

"I'm not arguing with you" is a great last word (for you), I think!

It sounds perfectly normal to me. Try not to stress too much or you'll just give yourself an ulcer.

That post is very simplistic. Yes I agree that it's not good for children to be placid walkovers, because that doesn't translate well to adult life. But there is a middle ground - you don't have to "celebrate" every time they are difficult. That just teaches them the opposite - that it's perfectly OK to get what you want by demanding and stropping about it!

The middle ground is to teach them to reason and negotiate (by engaging with it a little) but while sticking to set boundaries. Like a PP said she doesn't allow a straight "No!" - that is a good boundary. One of my triggers is being ignored, I think that is rude, that is a boundary in our house - you will respond if somebody is speaking to you. I also don't allow name calling. "I don't want it/I don't like it" is borderline but OK for now. "This dinner is poopy" is not.

YY to "I'm not arguing with you". I also like "This conversation is over."

My just turned four year old is the queen is negations and back chat. I think it's as they hit an age where they realise they are a separate being and they actually do have choice.

I use a common sense approach, if you 4 why wouldn't you try and negotiate 5 more minutes before bed? Choose your battles I'd say.

If we are not in a rush then I will let her play before going to school, if not I explain why "You can't play for 5 minutes today because you took a long time getting dressed. If you play we will be late for school". She is much better when things are explained.

She also "back chats" over clothes/ shoes, but why can't she wear the wellies if she wants to? Of course it is raining she can't wear ballet pumps but then I'd explain that to her which works.

I don't think you should send her to her room, it might be irritating (I bloody agree it often is when you think do what you ate told?!?!) But she is communicating with you and working out where she stands/ what she has control of. Nurture is into a healthy method of communication, although I agree with the not providing other options when it's something she likes, agree with a pp that "sorry, there isn't anything else" is a good way to go.

Thanks for all the advice. It is clearlytthat she wants to be in charge and we both feel drained from it. I will try and let it go a bit and try not to get too wound up as I think we are in a vicious cycle.

On the food thing I do say well that's all there is.

But it is just the constant ness. I'd simply like her to be polite to me and do what she is told without every time being a discussion .

I'd simply like her to be polite to me and do what she is told without every time being a discussion .

Hahahahahahaha. Try again in 13 years

I don't like the framing of "answering back". How are they supposed to know when it's a conversation -- in which we all "answer back" to each other, responding in the usual way, and when they are supposed to basically put up and shut up, without being able to respond? They are people. I think that by and large, we need to model respectful behaviour to them and to each other, and avoid spouting "don't answer back!" when we don't hear what we want to hear. The last thing I'd want is for mine to feel that they can't talk to me, that I shut them down reflexively when I'm not getting what I want.
I agree with PP about not tolerating a plain "No!" when I ask my DC to do something, and certainly a shouted "NO!" gets an immediate stern chat. But I don't tell mine not to "answer back". I agree this sounds like healthy boundary-pushing and it does sound frustrating but they push boundaries with the people they know love them the most, with whom they feel most secure.

Yes fussy. Agree totally.

This was me at that age. A family legend is when I'd answered back yet again, my exasperated mother exclaimed "You always have to have the last word!"

I snapped back "No I don't!"

Aaaaahhhh...at least I'm not alone! My DS (5) is also like this; he can be so rude about everything. Just one example: "Mum, you cooked my porridge too hot again!". Which doesn't sound too bad written down, but is said in a very nasty, accusing tone of voice. I realise, though, that the way I was responding wasn't the best. For example, I would usually reply "Don't talk to me like that!", which was kind of modelling how not to speak to people, really. I'm now trying to say "Can you say that again in a kind, polite way please?", instead.

I've also tried repeating back to him the things he says to me- in that exact tone- and it really upsets him, wobbly lip 'n'all....! Cue a mini lecture about "How do you think it makes me feel to be spoken to like that?"

I will punish when he steps over the line though- for example, the other day, I got "Mum, you IDIOT!" over something innocuous, which led to a cancelled trip to the skate park.

It's all a work in progress, though- DS is still, frequently, extremely rude and stroppy, so God knows if I'm on the right track....

I'm not sure about the article linked above: the writer seems to be excusing his kids' rudeness by pointing out that we need to learn to set boundaries and say no. We certainly do, but assertiveness and rudeness are not the same thing, not at all.

I'd simply like her to be polite to me and do what she is told without every time being a discussion .

My kids get 3 chances on this one. I ask nicely once, I check they heard me (in case they didn't), 2nd time is 1 or 2 words eg. "Shoes. ON." . If I have to ask a 3rd time it is a punishment. On the other hand, if they do it the first time or without asking (faint!) they get praised and encouraged. Also, have a chat before about 'we are working on this'...at a time when you are both calm and it is a pleasant time.

I think the argumentative nature is maybe just her, in which case this is just training for the teenage years. (Training yourself mostly - to be patient!).

Actively not doing what asked is different to saying dinner isn't nice. I think you need to work on one thing at a time so:

Phase 1: Doing what asked before 3rd time of asking

Phase 2: Not saying 'No' outright. Or eye rolling (also not allowed in our house).

Phase 3: Speaking in a polite tone of voice even when disagreeing (this is a lot to expect all of the time, but even if you get 50%, that's a victory!). So, "Can I pick my coat up in 5 mins when I've finished my game?"

Figure out exactly which things trigger you and then break them down so you can deal with each one. At the moment, the examples you gave were annoying rather than really rude (I think), so if this is the worst of it, you're doing a good job!

Oh yes definitely to breaking it down too. Good idea.

I think mine was really struggling with having to be polite and restrained all day at school so that when she got home she'd be quite shouty and cheeky. I think it's a bit of a phase for some.

I think rather than try to optimal obedience it's better to teach that life is about bargaining to some extent. People will help you much more, if you help them.

Hence I tend to opt for the TV's not going on until that coat's hung up. Oh I won't make you any tea tomorrow then. Or just repeating back "did you really just say x, y, z" with shocked face.

Over time it's just gone with maturity. Realising that somebody else's time and effort is involved, we all want a tidy house or we can't have friends round. She earns pocket money by hoovering the stairs, putting washing away etc.

Although a couple of her friends are still quite challenging in this way - they've always got an answer for everything and I think it must be very wearing for their parents. I do wonder if they'll turn out like those people you occasionally come across at a work meeting or on a course, where you're internally begging for them to please stop speaking.

as a kid i was always told off for answering back, in my head i was defending myself, or having an opnion.
My parents think my kids answer back shockingly badly (i bet) i think we are having a discussion and agreeing mutually good solution.
Until i snap and say "DO IT NOW"

I think maybe that I am like 0xetc parents. When I was growing up my parents word was law ( not a hint of teenage rebellion here) therefore I am surprised my child is not the same.

She wouldn't negotiate with a teacher so why should she with us.

Fwiw I have a great relationship with my parents.

I think different kids are different though Pimms. I was the argumentative one, my dsis wasn't, always did what she was told and no rebellion either. Me, well... and my parents were strict. As a teenager what hurt me most was that my mother wouldn't engage with me. If I was having a blazing argument, it was to myself, a rant really, not an argument, when I really needed a good dose of ENGAGEMENT.

Well each to their own parenting style etc, you have to do what works for you, but she doesn't negotiate with the teacher because the teacher can't negotiate with everyone at once. But in the family the situation is a bit different, and you could, if you wanted to, let her practice that skill a little at home. Not over everything of course. Not everything has to have a grand summit or a family meeting, but just over certain things.

I think the worst thing about parenting is the constant negotiation.

In my head it's 'just shut the fuck up and get on with it'

And out loud it's 'hmm, let's have a think then'

Yes, my kids tend to know if it is a negotiating matter or not, if I say, No, we're not discussing this one!