To think that a five year old shouldn't answer back to their parents

[Pimmsoclocknow]

Just that really. My five year old is basically great, doing really well at school etc.

However, she answers back constantly to everything. Eg pick up your coat. I will in five minutes after doing something. No do it now.
We are having x for dinner. I don't want x. (Despite the fact that she loves it). Always has to have last word

I think that this is unacceptable and am sending her to her room when she answers back. But the message is not getting through and she carries on doing it.

I think that she shouldn't answer back to me and dh but given as she constantly does it I wonder if I am simply expecting too much from her.

It is draining for both dh and myself.

I think it is reasonable to have firm do not cross lines about certain issues-and for me what's for dinner is one of them.
But actually are you trying to raise a compliant middle of the management line adult or an innovative thinker, who doesn't accept no every time and argues for what she wants and needs, be it in a relationship a pay rise a promotion or starting her own business so she becomes an adult who gives what she is doing her best shot and can feel pride in her achievement in the face of opposition.
Children need to learn to argue and negotiate, to think critically and develop confidence, that said they also need to learn when to follow rules and as they get a bit older sometimes it's OK for them to learn how to bend rules.
Others on here have had good suggestions.

Not that there is anything wrong with being middle of the line, as long as you are happy where you are. What I mean is being able to fight to be where she wants to be and not just a yes person who gets walked over.

Tangerine. I think my concern is thats she will be too far the other way. The person who always argues and has to get her own way.

I think that we have been too negotiationing for a while and in last six months have tried to be firmer but message isn't getting across.

It's just draining. Eg yesterday we were tidying the shed (exciting I know) so the picnic rug was on the lawn. She asked for something to eat on the rug. I explained that it was 30 minutes until dinner and it wasn't a picnic so no she couldn't. Cue fifteen minutes of demanding and arguing for something to eat. I said no again and then ignored it. Dh then said unless you stop shouting you will go to your room. She carried on shouting so went to her room until dinner.

Later that evening she went and found books with picnics in continuing to say that every time a rug comes out people are eating.

I know that in the grand scheme this is pretty minor but illustrates the point

I don't think that illustrates that she wants to get her own way at all. I think she was just excited because she thought there would be a picnic and then confused when you said there wouldn't be. The situation could have been handled less confrontationally IMO - you could have acknowledged that she was right that that blanket is a picnic blanket and you usually use it for picnics, before explaining that it was a bit too cold for a picnic and that it was on the lawn because of cleaning the shed. Or you could have said it's too close to dinner but suggested she got some play food or had a pretend picnic with some teddies or something. If one of you was free you could even have sat down and played tea parties with her for 10 minutes.

I am not saying that every situation should be handled like this but that everything doesn't have to be a battle. There are other ways to get across the message that no, we're not doing that right now. Of course if she was still being argumentative then that's different, but it seems to me like in this situation she thought something was happening and then it wasn't and she wasn't satisfied by the explanation so she then got more insistent and it ended up as a big battle, which was perhaps not necessary.

It's not healthy for a child to do everything they are asked to without question because of an expectation that they do as they're told and don't "answer back."

If it's constant then you need to rethink how you're framing the requests. Are they commands, or are you telling her that "it's time to..." in a respectful manner? "But I need to..." needs to not be met with arguments, but a reminder that she can continue with it, later. Have a respectful dialogue with your child instead of trying to assert power and you will be a lot less stressed.

I thought kids learned their behaviour from people around them? ;)

with food we have no negotiating - DD eats whats put down, if she makes a fuss and wants something else she gets told we are all eating whatever it is so she has to eat it to. Also its not as if we put things down to her she doesn't like and tbh she only refuses it because she wants sweets/cake/crisps or other junk food.

Bertie I should have been clear that I had already got the play food and done a tea party but she was adamant about real food.

We do have huge amounts of discussion and negotiations . Plus she is given a lot of choices but I think that there are times when it can't be a negotiation.

Eg can discuss for five minutes but not all evening

Maybe stop joining in the confrontation, if you can, offer choices, eg "would you like jacket potatoes or chips with your sausages?"
Or just continue as normal without responding so if you say "we're having sausages and mash for tea" and she says "I don't like it" just say "ok" and serve it anyhow, Pop it politely in front of her and leave her to it, no confrontation, once everyone is finished, ask her "have you finished?" And remove her plate, ignore what has or hasn't been eaten.
Think you need to stop the to-ing and fro-ing that goes on, it'll just frustrate you both.

Disappointed that is an interesting article but I would suggest misses the point that in large areas of life we don't have any choice and have to comply.

Eg if I speed when driving I am dangerous and breaking the law. Surely children should consider domestic rules eg hold hands crossing the road and using fork not fingers to eat dinner in the same way wider society obeys the law. I may not agree with the speeding law but I follow it and if I break it and get caught for speeding I don't negotiate with the police.

And thanks for all the advice everyone. I've decided for the next week to really pay attention to the triggers and work out when and why it is bad. And indeed how often it happens as opposed to doesn't to work out if it is constant or just feels like that. I know that it can't be all the time because a lot of the time is fabulous.

I think that I have just let it get to me a bit. And maybe I am old fashioned to think that children should be deferential.

Pimms - I have successfully negotiated with a policeman after being caught speeding, and with traffic wardens who I have caught in the nick of time! Actually, as a child, I always answered back as well Maybe that improved my negotiating skills?!

I can imagine my DS doing the picnic thing. I would have stood firm on the refusal because it was shortly to be dinner, like you, but would probably also have offered a picnic at another time. That way it is clearly 'not now' rather than 'not ever' (which is what I think children sometimes get from a flat no).

Another thing that works is hearing how they are feeling, even if it isn't going to change your decision. So I might say 'Are you very disappointed? I'm sorry about that. I'm not saying no to be mean, it just isn't the time'.

And I've had to make a massive effort recently because I was very ratty with the children after a recent bereavement knocked me for six. I am learning to ask myself how much stuff matters. Not in the sense of anything goes, but to try and stay the adult in a situation and not get locked into a battle of wills. I realise I don't have to completely 'win' every argument or confrontation to keep my children on the straight and narrow.

Real rudeness and things like hitting must be tackled. But sometimes it is a good idea to leave them to chunter and whine while you just get on with stuff. You've told them your position, you keep your cool and leave them to their feelings.

Have you heard of the Milgram experiments on obedience, OP. Most people will give increasing electric shocks to a person because they are told to until they know that person is very hurt or even possibly dead, because they are told to by an authority figure.

I want my DD to put her shoes on when asked but I'd rather she was the sort of person who questioned authority. I probably can't have both.

There are hills I will die on (hand holding near roads, not touching the cooker) but apart from that, she gets to ask and question and negotiate.

but I'd rather she was the sort of person who questioned authority

I bet her teachers wouldn't!

I bet her teachers wouldn't!

Some of the best teachers I had absolutely supported me to question authority.

There is discussion and answering back in a rude and unacceptable manner,
When things are up for discussion then an explanation / discussion are fine. When it gest to downright rudeness and not listening ( or wanting to listen) to the others answers then punishment is fine. Pick your agruments ( for your sanity as well). I won't tollerate rudeness I will tollerate genuine interest as in why they can't have X or do X ....

I will tollerate genuine interest as in why they can't have X or do X

trouble is sometimes the only answer I want to give is "you can't - because I just want you to shut the fuck up about it and if I give in once you will badger me for weeks asking for the same bloody thing over and over and over - whereas if I just say NO now, you'll cry for a bit and it will be done with..."

(wonder where DD14 gets her occasional grump tendencies )

Of course the answer I would give is "it is too close to dinner, maybe we could get the picnic blanket out at snack-time tomorrow/at the weekend and have a proper teddy bear's picnic"

Discipline can be difficult, not least because of your own childhood 'programming'. I have difficulty with my kids answering back, because I was really quite scared of my mother's temper and never answered back for fear of reprisal.

My kids are not scared of me and will happily answer back. This is good in many ways, but also bad because my knee-jerk internal response is to shout 'Because I SAID SO' and smack them around the face if they resist further. I've never done this maybe the shouty part, once or twice but God I often want to. I do manage to allow some negotiation and engage a bit, but it can be such very hard work. Some days the only thing that gets me through is thinking 'Don't be like Mum was'.

On a different tack, a friend told me that kids who test the boundaries all the time are cleverer than average. I am clinging to this like a life-raft

I've just studied Milgram!

"Disappointed that is an interesting article but I would suggest misses the point that in large areas of life we don't have any choice and have to comply.

Eg if I speed when driving I am dangerous and breaking the law. Surely children should consider domestic rules eg hold hands crossing the road and using fork not fingers to eat dinner in the same way wider society obeys the law. I may not agree with the speeding law but I follow it and if I break it and get caught for speeding I don't negotiate with the police."

Firstly, speeding doesn't equal dangerous - it depends entirely on context. Sometimes driving at the speed limit is dangerous.

DD sometimes eats with her fingers and other times insists on knives and forks to eat a sandwich. No harm done either way so I don't argue about that. I don't feel the need to manage that situation.

Other things have to be done, but we talk and negotiate how they happen. Eg, if you get ready for school quickly you can play for 10 minutes. It's bath night, you can choose the bubbles. And so on.

I have a rather argumentative 7 year old and this thread has same great ideas I'm going to try.

I already try to explain that it is often the manner of her arguing that I have a problem with as like Mrs TP I would like her to question authority but I don't want her to insult people!

My method can work wonders. The other day DD asked why we were doing something. I sat down and started my "we need to blah because blah" and giving her choices and she said, "I don't want to talk about it" and went ahead and did it. Bwahahahaha! I win!

Some of the best teachers I had absolutely supported me to question authority.

Perhaps when you were doing A levels! If a Reception teacher says, "Time to tidy up" and there is a lone, whiny voice (soon being copied by 30 other kids) saying, "But why? Why do we have to tidy up? Why do I have to tidy up if everyone else is doing it anyway?" etc. etc. I don't think they'd have a lot of patience with it. Yes. bravo, a curious child standing up to authority, but sometimes they need to listen and work together. I am not exactly a pushover but I certainly listened to my parents and didn't spend my life (or theirs) negotiating over bubbles in the bath or when I needed to get ready for school. It really won't affect their ability to make decisions, lead, question and be confident unless their self esteem is SERIOUSLY undermined.

And actually there is a lot of evidence that un-negotiable boundaries are a source of great security to younger children. (Even if they do try and push them).

I just refuse to negotiate.

If there are toys on the floor (for example) then the conversation goes something like this:

Me: Pick up up your toys and put them away if you've finished with them please .

Child: I'll do it in a minute after x.y.z

Me: No you'll do it right now, if I have to come in there and do it myself then no TV all weekend / you'll loose said toys for a week / no gym club (insert chosen consequence here)...

If toys are not cleared away immediately and without fuss then the consequence is carried through. No shouting or telling off, just a calm follow through of the consequence with no remorse.

They soon start just doing what they're told without constantly questioning you.

I think concentration camps were run in a similar fashion. ^^