To think that a five year old shouldn't answer back to their parents

[Pimmsoclocknow]

Just that really. My five year old is basically great, doing really well at school etc.

However, she answers back constantly to everything. Eg pick up your coat. I will in five minutes after doing something. No do it now.
We are having x for dinner. I don't want x. (Despite the fact that she loves it). Always has to have last word

I think that this is unacceptable and am sending her to her room when she answers back. But the message is not getting through and she carries on doing it.

I think that she shouldn't answer back to me and dh but given as she constantly does it I wonder if I am simply expecting too much from her.

It is draining for both dh and myself.

I call Godwin's Law.

The fact is that there are times that I expect DD to do exactly as I say. Holding hands near traffic is one. However, this wish for absolute adherence to my God-like authority isn't something I want for my child. When does this start to slacken? When they're 10? 15? 25 and no longer want to visit?

It is important that children know there are unbreakable boundaries. For me AND for them. One I try to promote is that your body is yours and you get to consent or not to someone touching you. Other than that, if my rules are good and reasonable, they are pretty obvious and explainable and normally have natural or just consequences.

Don't want to get dressed? Fine, preschool in pyjamas then. Not 'because I say so' but 'because there's a really good reason'.

My 5 yr old DS will argue and negotiate till the cows come home given the chance. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing though it does wind me up when sometimes he still isn't doing what's been asked after the 3rd time of asking.

But I know I wouldn't have answered my mother back in the same way because I was scared of her and her reaction. I don't want him to have that same kind of fear and I would rather he does feel able to speak up and discuss things with me than close down communication to do it because I've said to.

There are times when he's told enough or that things aren't up for discussion and he doesn't argue back at school.

Concentration camps were run in a similar way.....

Seriously?? You're comparing someone who expects a child to put toys away when asked to mass slaughter, casual medical experimentation, random shootings for fun, death marches, violent infanticide...(barely scratching surface)

There's been some utter tripe on MN today but that wins the prize, it really does.

rumble there is some evidence that obedience plays a role in why people do commit atrocious acts. In some places in the Third Reich there were relatively few people in authority who were Nazis but the towns and cities dutifully sent all the Jews, Poles, disabled people, prostitutes off to be gassed. Were they monsters? Were they all xenophobic? Were they all terrified? Possibly they were just very rule bound and didn't know how and when to say this is a line I won't cross.

When Catholic priests were raping little children, did obedience to authority play a part? The unassailable position of the priests?

I am not teaching a child to conform, I hope I am preparing an adult. Who questions authority, who asks themselves where their own boundaries are, who doesn't go along with the herd if the herd is wrong. Who, at the end of the day, doesn't even follow the law if the law is unjust.

Possibly the secret police, friends or relatives disappearing or being dragged out and shot in the street, the storm troopers, death camps for anyone who put a foot out of line, the dogs and the guns probably helped. And the constant hope that you and yours might just live if you kept your head down.

The 'just obeying orders' line didn't work for the Nazis on trial at Nuremberg in 1946, they didn't get away with using it as an excuse at the time.

I have no issue at all with raising children to think critically but I find casual and flippant comparison of a parent daring to say she is firm with her child with the appalling ordeals of millions of men women and especially children in those camps deeply insensitive at best.

The 'just obeying orders' line didn't work for the Nazis on trial at Nuremberg in 1946 Doesn't mean it wasn't true. Did you see the reference to Milgram earlier. Any psychologist will tell you that it is genuinely amazing what you can get people to do if you have enough 'authority' you don't need Stormtroopers or dogs and guns.

I agree that the concentration camp reference was not something I would have done.

"Seriously?? You're comparing someone who expects a child to put toys away when asked to mass slaughter, casual medical experimentation, random shootings for fun, death marches, violent infanticide...(barely scratching surface) "

It was the "my way or consequences" 'bit of the previous poster's post that I was responding too. Where's the line there? Do as I say or no food? Do as I say or I'll beat you with a stick? Do as I say or you can sleep outside tonight?

DD has a habit of leaving toys out. I find that the next time she can't draw because her uncapped felt pens have dried up, or she can't find a toy she wants is a far more effective way of getting her to see the consequences of her own choices. Me forcing her to tidy doesn't give her the internal motivation to do it (just like sticker charts for potty training etc don't). Even at 4 she's started to pre-empt that by sometimes tidying things away unprompted. It's a very low-stress way of doing things in my view.

Ha Ha ...picture the scene...me in kitchen cooking tea..pan s bubbling
Enter one of my 3..(usually DD)
what's for tea Mum?
Me...I'm not going to tell you cos you'll only say you don't like it..now off you go/stir this/get knife and forks out...Job done!
This went on for years and now as adults (both sons chefs and DD a pretty good cook), they do it to me!
OP try humour ..it really does work..lots of good advice given here...good luck.

I prefer the concept of consequences to punishment.

I don't offer alternatives to meals which they won't eat, as long as it's something they don't have a 'thing' about. But I'm very happy for them to choose not to eat.

I agree humour does help with the "no" issue. Also, my son said no to a perfectly reasonable request on Monday, so I just reminded him that agreeable works both ways, and that I might also offer a no to his request for a lift later.

With little ones I think positive reinforcement can help eg x you are so helpful putting your shoes on that quickly! Or - I bet you can't get those shoes on quicker than I can do this ../ some other game or joke.

The Nazi comparison is inappropriate, in my view. It doesn't even work conceptually, as it is reasonable to expect children to do some things without negotiation. School and life certainly expects it.

That said, haven't we all occasionally yelled " put them on, NOW!"

DisappointedOne
It was the "my way or consequences" 'bit of the previous poster's post that I was responding too. Where's the line there? Do as I say or no food? Do as I say or I'll beat you with a stick? Do as I say or you can sleep outside tonight?

What the actual fuck are you blithering on about?
No food? Beat you with a stick? Sleep outside? SERIOUSLY?????

As I said in my post, consequences are usually something along the line of loose said toy for a week or miss gym class (I try to keep the consequence related to the behaviour that sparked it as it makes more sense to the child and they learn from it).

Quite where you plucked beating with a stick from is beyond me!

And yes, with young children I have found the 'my way or the consequences' way of doing things very effective.

So long as the 'punishment fits the crime' and in administering the punishment / consequence the child LEARNS rather than just using the punishment as an outlet for your own emotions to make you feel better, then all seems to tick along quite nicely.

I have 2 well behaved kids who (generally) do what they're told with a minimum of fuss and bother.

They do what you want them to because they fear what will happen if they don't.

I wouldn't be crowing about that. I don't use threats or punishments on DH either. It's not something that happens in normal healthy relationships.

I don't use threats or punishments on DH either.

Each age needs appropriate teaching methods. You shouldn't need to teach or train dh, but maybe if you enjoy something in bed you will 'encourage' him to do it more often.

Teenagers need different techniques, and a lot more freedom. This is where you can really train them in critical thinking.

Under 10's teaching is different to under 5's.

I was brought up on 'punishment' (not actually a word I use) and I am not afraid of my parents one little bit. They knew how to adjust according to my age. They taught me to be polite, considerate, kind (yes, it needs to be taught AND modelled) and also, importantly, that the world doesn't revolve around me. That one helps a whole lot when you're in the big, wide world.

I bet your kids are really well behaved, DisappointedOne.

She is 99% of the time, yes.

Currently struggling with a mega stroppy 6 year old DD so you have my sympathies - but no assurance that I have the answers!

The philosophy of this is interesting. It's absolutely true that I do not issue threats or punishments to DH. However, neither do I dress him, prepare his food, drive him to wherever he needs to go, make decisions about when he needs to see the doctor, wipe his bum ... I would raise an eyebrow if he attended the dinner table in just his socks, and if he spoke to me as DD sometimes does he'd be shortly in receipt of divorce papers The rules of engagement in an adult/adult relationship are not identical to those in an adult/child, not least because two adults can nearly always walk away from each other if they don't like the other ones behaviour.

I agree absolutely that the end goal of parenting is to raise kids who can question authority and make their own decisions. I think it's reasonable to acknowledge that we are on a journey to that point, and that while we are on that journey its right and appropriate that we make certain choices and set certain boundaries for our kids. And it's very helpful if they then comply with those choices without bringing the house down.

Also I think there is a different point about mutual respect. I don't often speak to DH or the kids in an unkind or rude manner. I wouldn't abuse colleagues or members of the public without bloody good reason. I would like the kids to learn that generally it's a good idea to discuss differences of opinion with mutual respect and courtesy. Nothing to do with authority.

The practicalities? I don't find it terribly helpful to punish DD for rudeness, or to get into a slanging match. I TRY ( and often fail) to be the calm immovable rock and turn a very deaf ear to the drama. If I think DD may have a point, I'm happy to discuss it in polite terms and manner. May even change my mind. If I know I'm not going to change my mind because there is a bloody good reason why things are the way they are, then I just try not to get drawn into the fray.

Also praise praise praise when she is kind, thoughtful, polite - let her know you value such things highly.

Maybe if you reframed your thoughts as 'DD and I should be polite and respectful to each other' rather than 'children shouldn't answer back' that would help you gauge your response in different situations?

Great post Jennifersrabbit

Your expectations are not high at all. Discipline is okay. I don't know why society has become do desensitized to doing the right thing. Your child is being polite to teachers and other adults so why not you? I think someones children just want to push their luck.
Also (and don't blast me guys) perhaps – parents become too “I’m a mum and mum only” and the kids tend to think of mummy as a machine that they can switch on and off if that makes sense. If your kids never have to wait for anything, never have to ask for anything, never have to be told no – they may accidentally think of you as disposable. Children are a lot more smart and accountable for their actions than we like to admit. This is something I’ve been feeling lately and see it as more as an issue with SAHM then anywhere else. I find that in households where discipline in enforced in conjunction with the kids seeing mum and dad go to work go to the gym and basically do other stuff than take care of them the parents time and patience is taken a lot more seriously. I’m not saying SAHMs don’t have their hands full I’m saying their hands are full with their kids and the kids sometimes take advantage off that and may not take their parents seriously.