To think the Uk Standards of beauty are suited to White people

[QueenofSouthLondon]

I have noticed as a black women that hardly any celebrities that are considered beautiful are black. In fact I can't think of one black (excluding mixed) or Asian British celebrity that is considered as beautiful by the whole nation.

Why is it that in this country we only find European features as attractive. It frustrates me as a black women that my features are not considered attractive outside my race.

So aibu to think this.

I have both Chinese and Indian friends as well as Black ones.
According to my Chinese and Indian friends the wish to look lighter skinned is due to the fact that being paler was seen to be more " upper class" as the poorer people who worked in the fields would be exposed to the sun.
A very good Chinese friend of mine is quite dark and gets upset that when in Hong Kong she is regularly taken for her light skinned mums maid.
So maybe it's perceived class rather than race thing.
As for white people finding lighter skinned black or Asan people more beautiful I do think that this is largely down to negative images in the media. This is changing but slowly

It's not really about representation though is it (at least not if you're white). Because (as has been pointed out) the 6 foot blonde whippet thin models aren't representative of any population anywhere. It's about what is widely held up and considered to be beautiful. And black women just aren't up there - and why not? I'm a white woman and I am no more represented by Gisele than I am by naomi Campbell. I would happily buy a magazine full of black models and actresses (well, as happily as I'd buy any other fashion mag which is not much acttally). And I can completely see how if I had a black daughter, for example, I would be really concerned that the only 'beauty' she would see in magazines is straight long hair, narrow nose, pale/golden skin. The average person on the street can recognise and admire more versions of beauty than that so why can't magazines and other popular media? It doesn't make sense from an aesthetic point of view, so it must be about racism.

Whiteness is considered the default in this society. It makes some white people very uncomfortable when that is questioned doesn't it?

'Yes I would have to agree it does. Rapid change and fear of the unknown always makes ordinary people feel vulnerable.'

"Ordinary people"? "Fear of the Unknown"? Really???

Yes really. Look, you're the one who asked the question. What would you say was an acceptable answer to it?

Yet again, racial generalisations on mumsnet.

Why is it that in this country we only find European features as attractive.

Can we possibly open our minds to the notion that not all European features and races are white? Go to Nordic countries (and they certainly migrate to the UK too) and you will find many people, even blonds, with Asian features, such as epicanthic folds and single eyelids. I'm sitting looking at one now...

It frustrates me as a black women that my features are not considered attractive outside my race.

Which is a bit of an insult to all the people in mixed race relationships and marriages. Are you suggesting that my uncle, who married a black woman 3 decades ago, wasn't attracted to her, in their lengthy, successful marriage?

I certainly don't find whatever some traditional European features are supposed to be attractive. I find what presumably the OP would classify as black features more attractive. I had no idea that this was so unusual. However, I think in all races, there is a limited appeal of very overweight, older women with irregular features, bad skin and poor quality hair.

YANBU OP. And I'd go further and say this isn't just about standards of beauty, it's about standards of normality (that's not the right word, not sure what is though and brain dulled by glass of Sunday dinner wine...hope you get what mean).

To all those who are saying why is this an issue? and quoting %'s I have an example. I've lived and worked in Birmingham and London, both very ethnically and culturally diverse. I now live in a small (and to be fair very lovely and accepting) village in Scotland. We have 4 BME kids in a school of 140. How do my DC ever grow up understanding that variety and diversity is something normal, acceptable and to be welcomed if they can't experience it? The media, that's how. DOVE shouldn't be the only company with a policy of inclusion.

A couple of years ago my sister and I went to Rewind Scotland (80s tastic festival for those who don't know) and got chatting to a group of women from a remote northern town. Everyone was pleasantly pissed, which does mean you are more open about your true feelings yes? When one made a borderline racist comment my sister challenged her about why she thought that. We got asked why we thought different and said we had lived in multicultural areas. The group of women as a whole asked questions about "how odd it must have felt" to have lived alongside BME and we left after one grudgingly accepted that black people were ok but, like her Dad had taught her, you just can't trust those Asians (actually she used a far more pejorative term).

Now I know that thankfully those women (in their 40s, not girls) are thankfully not representative of our society and I'm sure that pretty much everyone on here would condem their attitudes. But that's what you get when your only exposure to BME is controlled primarily by the media and its message of homenogeous beauty.

And for all those short, fat, pale skinned, ginger women worrying about if they are represented. My kids see plenty of those, plus they live with one. Our media has an important role to play here.

In the interests of science I've just gone through Stylist magazine from last week - a fashion magazine aimed at urban women.

Of 72 discernible individual women featured in photographs across news, editorial, features and ads, 10 are (to my perception so apologies in advance for errors) non-white. 7 of these are tiny thumbnails on news snippets including one tiny photos eg a little photo of 3 Japanese students, an anonymous Saudi blogger etc, one is a veiled Indian woman on the cover of a book reviewed.

Not ONE ad featured a non-white woman - not even the ones featuring a cropped body part. This includes brands like Marks and Spencer, Next, BA, Jimmy Choo, Loreal, etc

Not one member of the editorial team shown is non-white.

In other words, with two exceptions every woman playing a major role within the editorial is white and usually blonde.

Oh and this is a magazine which features images of older women (including Harriet Harman and Harper Lee) and plus size women.

On the other hand the main fashion feature has a black model which is rare. She's not on the front cover though - that's reserved for a white man.

milady from someone who has been called the pejorative term I think you mean. And from someone who lives in a tiny village where I am the only person of colour. You've nailed exactly why I think there needs to be more representation of people of colour within the media.

On the other hand the main fashion feature has a black model which is rare.

Out of how many fashion models featured in similar shoots that month?

And were there any models who look white to you but who actually have some Asian features, as is hardly unknown with Eastern European/Scandinavian models? At the northern tip, ie the further north you go, Europe is Asian.

Of 72 discernible individual women featured in photographs across news, editorial, features and ads, 10 are (to my perception so apologies in advance for errors) non-white. 7 of these are tiny thumbnails on news snippets

Assuming that white women also featured in "tiny snippet" photographs, that's higher than the population proportions of the UK would suggest pro rata. Like it or not, the UK is predominately a white country. True, you could always attack the preference for blond hair, even amongst whites.

Most women's natural hair is deemed unacceptable these days. I am white, have brown curly/ frizzy hair. If I just let it do it's own thing I'd get some looks, and wouldn't get the guy/ the job interview / the whatever.

10 BME out of 72 is (amazingly enough) by coincidence or otherwise, 14% which is EXACTLY representative of the BME population of the UK.

On the other hand the main fashion feature has a black model which is rare.

Well obviously not that rare, if you found it in the first magazine you picked up!

ha, me neither Charley. Unkempt and ungroomed is not considered attractive or professional whatever your colour or race.

I guess there is a reason why ethnic minorities are called ethnic minorities. Could it be because they are in the.....minority?
So it does not make sense from a business point of view to market products based on people from them.
Of course the ethical argument is completely different.
But ethics does not make big companies money.

BTW Lupita N'ongyo (sorry if incorrect spelling) is universally accepted as beautiful. So too Jourdan Dunn.

Go and buy the magazine Chandler - I've put in that their ethnicity is based on my perception. Feel free to do your own research.

I repeat:
Out of 18 full or half page ads for major brands not one non-white woman.

Just done a tally on Empire Magazine - 107 images of women - 7 of whom are non-white (IMO) including 2 images of the same actress Wei Tang.

To put that in context there are 9 images of Jennifer Aniston and this is the month Selma came out, and the major features are on films set in China and Johannesburg. And the Marvel Universe.

dontDrink because 'ordinary people' ie. white people, having a fear of the 'unknown' ie. representations of black people in the media, is a bit odd, don't you think? We're just humans.

When people question the media and society's messages about race, it makes white people get uncomfortable because we have to acknowledge that the deck is usually stacked in our favour. It leads to people of colour being told 'no, you're WRONG, there is xyz in this film/advert/whatever so therefore all is equal' or 'I'm fat/short/whatever so that's the same thing" it's not!

Sorry, typing on phone and full of cold so hopefully I'm making an ounce of sense.

Did you not read what I wrote DontDrink?

How is a Saudi blogger, an Egyptian referee, 3 Japanese students and a veiled image of an Indian woman representative of the ethnic make up of the UK? Bit of a stretch there eh?

"It leads to people of colour being told 'no, you're WRONG, there is xyz in this film/advert/whatever so therefore all is equal' or 'I'm fat/short/whatever so that's the same thing" it's not!"

This.

Being Indian/black and being underrepresented is not the same thing as having curly hair/being chubby/short. You go out and you will see other people like you, as milady said. When I go out in arse of nowhere, Northern Ireland there is literally no one else of colour.

personally im white but i think black and asian people have astounding beauty, i was actually looking up japanese beauty the other day as i just think they are so beautiful and i am always looking for hair and skin tips. of course they are under represented in our media and i would love to see much more in our magazines etc

plus i hate the fake tan look! it looks awful you see it overdone so often. just my opinion.

Tondelayo Go and buy the magazine Chandler - I've put in that their ethnicity is based on my perception. Feel free to do your own research.

I can't - ironically, I'm visiting family outside the UK. What I do have in front of me are the UK Closer magazine - one out of four on the cover are black (Mel B). And Heat UK magazine - main picture is Kanye West (black) and Kim Kardashian (North African ancestry). First feature is Kanye and Kim. After that a page with Taylor Swift, Katy Perry and Rhianna. Opening up Closer magazine, first five articles include one on Kim and Kanye and one on Jay Z and Beyoncé. Theres also minor articles with black people in them - but they are all there on merit, not some head count.

But I see plenty of black models in UK fashion magazines. Its hardly rare. I would have actually made an educated guess that UK models are in a minority even in British fashion magazines, since there are very few British women that have the build and appearance suitable. Most models come from Eastern Europe and increasingly China and African nations now, don't they?

I'm not being funny, but there was a thread on racism in the UK on mumsnet a week ago, and it ended badly - it seemed to end, to my perception at least, in bullying and closing down anyone who had an alternative opinion, and some posters seemed only interested in pushing their own opinions on others very forcibly, rather than having a discussion.

What I would say is that there is a cultural dimension to the lack of inclusion of Asian women from certain parts of Asia - but please, don't lets assume that all Asians are black or similar, that's really offensive.

All the women you mentioned chandler are mixed or have very European features which was exactly the point being raised by the op.

Tondelay In percentage terms it's exactly representative. I don't think we are going to start splitting hairs by analysing the exact racial breakdown, gender and religion of each person in every photo are we? That would be tedious.

Maybe that particular magazine knows that its readership is almost exclusively white and picks the bulk of its models accordingly? Much like the reason magazines aimed specifically at black women are full of black women?

And let's not forget that back and Asian women have many magazines devoted exclusively to them and their hair/style/beauty preferences so it's not as if they aren't represented or catered for at all. In fashion and beauty I think it's quite simply that black women have slightly different requirements than most white women - there's nothing sinister in it. And all magazines will target their core customer, as I said before.

LiD then I think we were talking completely at cross purposes. You say you were talking specifically about black people being represented in the media. I thought you were talking about the relatively sudden big increase in levels of BME people in the UK in general. I wasn't trying to suggest that 'ordinary people' feel a fear of the unknown when faced with Moira Stewart.

Gosh!! I agree with you re the media but as a white woman I would say the opposite, I'm completely fascinated by the natural beauty of black women!

whodrankmycoffee All the women you mentioned chandler are mixed or have very European features which was exactly the point being raised by the op.

Do you actually have any concept of how offensive that comment is?

(speaking as someone who is of mixed race, and who has been subjected to comments such as "You could pass for white" or "theres no way you're XX?"). It hardly ever happens in the UK, in my experience the UK is one of the least racist European countries. Outwith Europe, its different again - I doubt there are the same concerns about white blond women appearing in local media in many parts of the world.

Please can we get away from this constant segregating of people on strict racial lines? Its 2015. We try not to do it any more. Its a step back.

I think Kim Kardashian is of Armenian, Dutch, English and scottish descent, not 'North African'