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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Free Birth

174 replies

Weathergames · 24/02/2015 23:16

Am watching the programme on the BBC about Childbirth All or Nothing.

I had two of my kids at home which everyone at the time thought was a bit "out there".

AIBU to think "Free Birth" with planned no medical intervention or medical professional present is maybe a risk too far and possibly not fair on the baby should it need medical intervention?

I am prepared to be told IABU.

OP posts:
minifingers · 25/02/2015 14:38

"And the program said 'there is no scientific proof that this has any benefits' So what is the point?!"

Because not all things can be quantified, studied or measured, or are considered worthy of the time and effort needed to research them.

The point was that those women felt it was helpful to them and their babies, and there was no evidence of harm.

minifingers · 25/02/2015 14:39

She's always got 999 - that's what you'd do in any serious emergency anyway. It's what happens in any home birth situation which goes badly wrong.

seaoflove · 25/02/2015 14:49

But paramedics most likely have fairly limited experience of obstetric emergencies, unlike midwives.

MyCrazyLife · 25/02/2015 14:51

I think it's very dangerous.

My third baby was delivered by DH and it was fucking terrifying!

Weathergames · 25/02/2015 14:54

Hmm in a homebirth situation you have someone with you who has a degree in midwifery - there must be a good reason why people get them - oh maybe to protect the unborn child who has no choice in this?

She lived on a narrowboat on a canal - possibly not easily findable or accessible for an emergency crew.

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 25/02/2015 14:55

I agree that births are becoming too medicalised and I would consider a home birth but definitely not free birthing. I just don't think it's worth the risk.

FoulsomeAndMaggotwise · 25/02/2015 15:06

My sister is a paramedic and has delivered a few babies, but a lot of what she does is guess work as she's not specifically trained for that. Her attitude towards the birthing mothers is also questionable ("she wouldn't tear if she just pushed when I said so" etc)

I'm having a home birth myself and agree that birthing has become over medicalised but no way would I not have a midwife there.

machair · 25/02/2015 15:07

I'd always understood that the most risky part of childbirth (for the woman) is the third stage, which is when the placenta should come out.

hyperspacebug · 25/02/2015 15:32

I am also conservative risk-averse person - homebirth with midwives it is, then. Homebirth is no longer 'utter bonkers' like it used to be, but supported with lots of evidence nowadays. Free birth - not so much evidence.

I heard unassisted birth is more popular in USA - where women don't have a choice of free midwife in many states. It was choice between over-medical obstetricians and 'natural but doing it on your own'.

RedToothBrush · 25/02/2015 15:36

Having watched the programme, I'm extremely frustrated.

Whilst I found it interesting, I also found it extremely annoying too. The problem was that it set all the women up to appear selfish in their own ways for doing something that didn't fit in with mainstream thinking and at times deliberately sought to make them look bonkers. It was the framing of this which I found bad. And all the examples pandered to existing stereotypes rather than scratching below the surface and questioning much about why they had abandoned the mainstream thinking.

The programme only really touched on the psychologically of birth briefly and when it did, it appeared to be either a passing comment or another way of making the woman look bad.

Firstly, the freebirther
One thing I want to say about her, is this - its brilliant that she engaged with the NHS and the midwife informed her in a sensitive and non-judgmental way about her choice and the fact she was able to change her mind at anytime.

One of the biggest risks about freebirthers is their complete lack of engagement with ante-natal services. This means any potential problems are much more likely to go unnoticed and this is one of the areas where the biggest risk lie. In this case, there wasn't much about what the freebirther would have done had something been picked up during the course of this - the focus was purely on the birth itself. We are left to assume that she had a low risk, uneventful pregnancy in both cases.

She was also clearly, whilst very singleminded in her approach, not stupid. She knew what her rights were, what the legalities were, had obviously investigated alternatives (she talked about independent midwives and pointed out that they had given her incorrect information). She also knew a fair amount about the psychologically of birth.

Whilst I disagree with her approach and her attitude of 'millions of women have given birth', I think its also wrong to compare her situation to those women in Africa who give birth unassisted too. Firstly, she has received ante-natal care, secondly her understanding of hygiene/disease is likely to be better by virtue of her education and lastly she does has an attitude of no fear to birth and because she has a choice you are not comparing like for like (You don't eliminate the element of fear from birth from women giving birth in other cultures). And yes there is always an ambulance... So whilst her risks are much higher than the average woman in the UK, they are reduced compared to other scenarios.

Little time was given to why she dismissed the idea of a home birth too. She clearly talked to independent midwives. Why? Was it the NHS protocols that bother her, and then upon approaching independent midwives and being given information about her rights that was incorrect, she dismissed them as a possibility? Was it because she didn't find someone she felt she could trust and accommodate her wishes even with a homebirth? The reason I pose the question, is because a friend attempted a home birth, but one of the attending midwives wasn't on the same page and as soon as she started to make progress the midwife would clockwatch and it would all slow down again. She'd not felt pressured with another midwife; it was just this one particular one.

Then the ELCS lady
Of course they HAD to pick, a woman who was exceptionally well off, and well frankly was a bit of a twit and had a husband who was frankly a bit of an arse going private. They didn't pick a woman, who decided to go down the same route on the NHS or was practically bankrupting herself to go down the private road. The photo shoot at the end really did pander to the 'too posh to push' thing as did all the business of flying to Miami ten days after the baby was born making the husband look like a wanker with no concept of major surgery or how his wife might actually feel. (And neglecting to ask any question of whether airlines might object quite apart from the passport issue). Same old shit peddling the same old myths.

I'm grateful that at least the consultant in question did state that most women requesting an ELCS did so with a massive amount of baggage and anxiety which did include IVF adding to ordinary childbirth fears.

It annoyed me because NICE do say that maternal request ELCS do have a place and that reasons behind them should be explored at length. Just because the woman paid for hers, and bypassed this doesn't mean there aren't issues there. And it does sound like she possibly did fit that bill with anxiety above normal.

Not only that, far from being 'irresponsible' in the same way as freebirthing or going against medical advice to induce labour or have a high risk homebirth, NICE says that whilst carrying some risk ELCS for 'non-medical' reasons are safe and may prevent psychological damage in certain cases. But by putting them into the same framework as the other birth showed, it did rather suggest differently.

Indeed when I had my ELCS which was termed as medical request as they have no category for mental health reasons, one of the reasons it was granted was because they wanted to engage with women as in the past refusing ELCS has lead to some women freebirthing. Basically accommodating and listening to women, no matter 'how out there' their choices were, was essential and was more important than following the system and normal practices.

Personally, I do feel it made the women 'the bad guys' rather than looking at what services and pressures women face in childbirth and how the NHS work with women and how they might be failing those women, who for whatever reason, fall outside normal expectations and thinking and are not catered for. Again there was little discussion of why a high risk woman might go against medical advice in the case of one of the other two women. (I could mention the definition of 'risk' and 'safe' in relation to birth at hospital. and home here. The place of birth study which focused on low risk women is an interesting example as it showed risk to women increased in obstetric settings)

So for me the programme missed the most important issue of all, and failed to really address the link between the mind and body in childbirth and how there might be cases where rational and the irrational might be disconnected because of the emotional nature of childbirth.

I dunno. I'm yet to see anything on TV that really addresses this angle without vilifying women in one way or another, whether consciously or unconsciously and breaking through the myth of 'irresponsibility' and differing concepts of risk and risk avoidance. I'd really like to see something address the politics and ideology of birth a bit more and see how it stands up to the science and whether there can be multiple approaches that fit different groups of women rather than a programme that just ends up focussing on the mechanics and not really challenging our preconceptions.

RedToothBrush · 25/02/2015 15:39

In short, I think its far to simplistic to simply say

'Oh she had a freebirth therefore she is irresponsible and selfish'.

I think that kind of thinking misses the entire point.

EstherCard · 25/02/2015 15:47

I found myself wondering what freebirth lady would have done had things not gone so smoothly. She was lucky - two births with no probs at all. I had early rupture of membranes - massive infection risk. My sister had retained placenta, very dangerous if not treated right away. A friend of mine had an emergency section as baby became suddenly distressed.
My point? All of us had perfectly healthy pregnancies, we were under midwife care and would have qualified for homebirth.
Childbirth isn't a spiritual experience, it is at the end of the day, about producing a healthy baby. I wanted a hands off water birth, and felt bad for ages about having to have an emergency section.
Then I had to get over myself. Had I not been so well monitored and cared for my son and I would both be dead.
I have no problem with home birthing as long as women accept that if there's a problem then they must get serious medical help. It was the head in the sand mentality of the free birthing women that really got me - the utter refusal of even some emergency phone numbers just in case! And as for that crap about your body knowing what to do, good grief! Mine didn't and I bet a whole load of women on here would say the same.

Very jealous of the water birth. I had wanted a nice simple birth like that. Lucky lady!

ghostspirit · 25/02/2015 16:05

i gave birth to my daughter on my own well sort of. i thought labour was going to be ages dont like hospital want to be in and out asap so thought i would stay home till i could no longer cope. called hospital. then suddenly pain was overly strong hosptial sends ambulance. i just pushed babys head out on my own. and paramedics ran in and sort of caught her as she came out. they cut cord. placenta came out not long after. and midwife turned up about 30 mins later. birth took about 40 mins in all i had that jab in the thigh but i cant remember who gave it. :/ it was the best birth ever though. im planning a home birth this time round. i would like to do as much as i can on my own

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 25/02/2015 16:14

Yes, minifingers, she has got 999, in an emergency - but for one thing, the person with her may well not recognise the warning signs of a problem as early as a trained professional would, and for another, there would be a delay whilst the ambulance was en route - those two delays could be the difference between a safe outcome and a poor one, in the event of a problem arising.

Whereas, if a midwife is present, she would have a far better chance of spotting a potential problem early, and either dealing with it him- or herself, or calling an ambulance in good time.

middlings · 25/02/2015 16:32

RedTooth can I just say YY to your assessment of the midwife who came out to see the free-birthing woman. She was fabulous - completely non-judgemental. Massively practical. Even when the woman scoffed at the notion of changing her mind and going to hospital the MW just said very calmly "Well, it's important it's been said, and now it has." She was lovely - reminded me of the lead MW at my local ante-natal clinic, whom I would lay on an open wound. Brilliant lady.

You're also right about the ELCS woman - she was portrayed as a bit of a cliché. Not helpful to a serious debate.

SDTG can I build (I think) on your point above and say that, while an emergency may arise, it's not the best use of the best resources in terms of skill or time - why would one not accept the numbers of the people best placed to help, rather than potentially diverting an ill-equipped resource from a situation where they are equipped to help (an RTA or something). Highly selfish behaviour IMHO.

maskingtherealme · 25/02/2015 16:48

A woman across the road from my MIL has a daughter who did this 'free birthing' but she also refused all scans and antenatal appointments citing medical intervention as being 'evil' and unnecessary (complete bollocks IMO as all educated people know, birth is never the same for any of us and it is impossible to know for sure that any birth will go without a hitch).
As it turned out, baby was rushed to hospital with an undiagnosed heart condition. Now the free-birthing mum who was against medical intervention AND innoculations is now demanding every treatment under the sun. My MILs neighbour is appalled at her daughter's decisin saying it was selfish because she was thinking only of herself and not of her baby. Consultants also said the delay means that proper treatment couldn't be given at first as the heart condition hadn't been diagnosed and could have been. She would have had 18-20 weeks of planning for her son to be treated had she not gone down the free-birthing route.

fatlazymummy · 25/02/2015 17:41

I am the result of a free birth (though it wasn't planned that way). Thankfully my Mum and I survived with no ill effects, though she was terrified.
I have had 3 uncomplicated births myself, and if I really had to I could probably have given birth by myself, at least for the last 2. I also had basic midwifery training (8 weeks as part of the RGN training). Probably enough training to deliver a baby myself in an emergency.
Even so, I wouldn't have dreamt of 'free birthing'. There's just too much that can go wrong.
And 'my body, my choice' doesn't really cut it when it comes to actually giving birth, at least as far as I'm concerned.

seaoflove · 25/02/2015 17:42

Me too fat. A free birth at 28 weeks at home. My parents wouldn't recommend it.

kitchentableagain · 25/02/2015 18:34

I trust adult women can make their own choices about their own babies and bodies better than I can.

I had all three of mine at home. One ended in a hospital transfer, after the birth, for MY benefit (baby was fine).

I experienced a fairly rare complication with one babe - a true knot in the cord. I had an odd labour with contractions all 15-20mins apart, then I wanted to push suddenly. Called my midwife (i used an independent as previously had precipitate labour and almost had the previous baby unassisted as the NHS midwives didn't believe how fast I was going) and as soon as she walked in and put her gloves on I had the baby. A woman at the toddler group I went to had had exactly the same scenario - multip, weird spaced out labour. She was in hospital and decided to augment her labour to "speed things up". Her baby died while they were performing the csection, his heartrate dropped as soon as they augmented as his sudden descent pulled the knot tight. That mother felt incredibly sad and angry and guilty that she'd gone to hospital when she overheard my similar birth story.

Obviously as a homebirther I have really examined and considered risks. The conclusion i came to is that it's an incredibly personal decision and that either way babies might die, mothers might die. For some women freebirth feels like the best and safest option FOR THEM. And it really might be.

It's easy to judge slightly riskier things that are non mainstream. More children die in car accidents than freebirths. But we like to drive, so we don't throw rocks at the mothers of those children.

1944girl · 25/02/2015 19:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

albertcamus · 25/02/2015 19:25

When I was told my 3yo DS was highly unlikely to survive his aplastic anaemia in 1989, my overwhelming urge was to take him home, out of the hospital, away from the seemingly brutal, invasive & toxic treatment which was the alternative, explained at that time 'to buy him time'. I simply couldn't face it, or even him, and walked straight out of GOSH & had to come home, leaving my DH with him.

Thank God our baby twins were found to be compatible as donors, and his life was saved by a bone marrow transplant after chemo. Within 3 months of diagnosis he was on his way to a full recovery, although it was a long & arduous road.

On reflection, I had no legal or moral right whatsoever to let my own instincts, however strong, override medical professionals' advice and expertise, and to do so would have led to my son's death.

I find it totally illogical that 'free birth' is even a legal right in view of its inherent & obvious risks. If a foetus is endowed with legal rights from 23 or 28 weeks, how does anyone have the right to deny it necessary medical support, monitoring or treatment if needed ?

I'm no fan of the medical system or establishment in this country, and had one traumatic ECS & one elective CS. Many aspects of my son's treatment at 'wonderful' GOSH were poor and compounded his and our stress. However, he had the right to that treatment, and is alive today because of it.

VivaLeBeaver · 25/02/2015 19:48

A foetus doesn't have any rights in this country. A baby has rights as soon as its horn but not before.

RedToothBrush · 25/02/2015 21:22

I find it totally illogical that 'free birth' is even a legal right in view of its inherent & obvious risks. If a foetus is endowed with legal rights from 23 or 28 weeks, how does anyone have the right to deny it necessary medical support, monitoring or treatment if needed ?

Well firstly, a foetus has no legal rights in the UK. Thank fuck.

And secondly, I'm very very glad that freebirth is NOT criminalised. How would you tell if someone had free-birthed deliberately or accidently in most cases? You'd be arresting completely innocent women, including some on this thread, just after they'd given birth which is appalling.

The woman in the series was actually unusual in being upfront about it. Many women who deliberately intend to do it, do so out of fear or because of some sort of vulnerability rather than for spiritual reasons. The spiritual thing can be a way of justifying and rationalising the irrational too.

Freebirthing can be seen as a way of avoiding doctors - there are women who have had terrible experiences in the past or distrust the medical profession to a degree that is irrational or phobic. This actually makes them vulnerable rather than criminal.

The alternative to treating this group of women as criminals would be to section them and deem them incapable of making choices about their own body. This too would be equally wrong and discourage them from seeking help if things did start to go wrong at any point or they changed their mind. They also do still have the legal capacity to make decisions under law and would be being treated differently to other people.

It was recognised by those caring for me that refusing to help me have an ELCS could possibly alienate me further, and they knew of examples where this had happened. I have read several threads on MN from women desperate for an ELCS and so afraid of the alternative should they be refused that they saw the only alternative as free-birthing.

And on top of all this, you'd be removing the mother from a child if you criminalised her. Whilst these women might be vulnerable and might be doing something others think is bad, that does not make them unfit parents whether you like it or not. They need to be encourage to engage. They might be making decisions with the best interests of their child at heart, but not be completely aware of the real risk because they are so controlled by irrational thought. They still have the capability to be wonderful parents with the right support.

Criminalisation alienates.

TooSpotty · 25/02/2015 21:23

Disclaimer - I haven't seen the programme yet!

I've had two lovely low risk home births and hope to have a third. I personally have never wanted to free birth; for me, having a midwife or two there makes me calm and secure, and the risk is too much for me.

But I do 'know', through online groups, several free birthers and they are, without exception, doing it because they felt traumatised and violated by their previous birth experiences in medical surroundings. So not smug so much as so scared of going back into a hospital that unassisted birth is preferable. I find it incredibly sad that women end up feeling like that.

RedToothBrush · 25/02/2015 21:31

Precisely TooSpotty. Trying to get help for something when the thing that you fear is the only thing that might help you, is a bloody difficult thing to resolve. Its not talked about as much as it needs to be and the result is women secretly planning to do things like that and talking about it anonymously on the internet.

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