Free Birth

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Am watching the programme on the BBC about Childbirth All or Nothing.

I had two of my kids at home which everyone at the time thought was a bit "out there".

AIBU to think "Free Birth" with planned no medical intervention or medical professional present is maybe a risk too far and possibly not fair on the baby should it need medical intervention?

I am prepared to be told IABU.

I had an unplanned and virtually unassisted birth with DC4. The paramedic pretty much came in and caught him.
It was an incredibly quick and easy birth but I went into total shock, shaking and vomiting and wasn't able to hold DS for about 7 or 8 hours afterwards.
He is nearly three and I still get a cold sweat when I think about it and when I go into the room he was born in.

I don't believe birth isn't messy either. Our bathroom looked like a horrendous crime scene afterwards which poor DH who hate the sight of blood had to clean up.
Even after my hospital births there has been loads of blood all over the floor that has needed mopping. A plastic shower curtains and a few care mats wouldn't have been enough.

I really don't think they should be glamourising this by making a programme about it. If someone was amputating their leg in their own front room people would think they were mad.
If a parent decided not to get medical help for a child who needed it they would be considered negligent. Two of my babies needed oxygen straight after my text book easy hospital births. If I was at home with DH after having them they might be dead.
I totally agree many women are hung up about the perfect birth experience and I think that ideal is part of the reason why Mothers who don't get it or can't have it get hit so hard by their experiences.
I don't understand when their is so much at stake why you wouldn't put the health and well being of your baby over your own need for a perfect magical experience you will more than likely drone on about for the rest of your days.

I don't think u could stand the guilt if my baby died during a free birth

My jaw was on the floor watching this and I haven't even finished watching it yet. I think free birthing is not worth the risk. She talks about women giving birth without support in other countries but before midwifery was established as a formal profession, there would have been experienced women helping other women to give birth.

^^this.

To say women have been giving birth for years with no intervention is total and utter bollocks. Women have been having assisted births for thousands of years and not just people drinking rose water and praying to a gentle birth bear! I can totally understand people not wanting intervention unless necessary (DD2's hospital birth was pretty much unassisted due to the useless midwife being on the other side of the room writing in my notes as DD2 arrived in two surges three minutes after my waters went), but to have NO-ONE there who is experienced to help is just irresponsible.

And sorry, but had that c-section woman not done her research?? A straightforward vaginal birth is safer than a caesarean!

As for the lotus birth - gross. And sorry, but surely a piece of rotting meat attached to a baby is not a good idea?! Isn't that an infection risk? I don't understand how it isn't!! How long does it take to fall off.

The footage of that water birth was amazing though - well done that lady. She can keep her smoothies, but that birth was gorgeous.

i still don't understand what goodness can be coming from the afterbirth days after birth, when it's just rotting.

I can see the appeal. I prefer homebirth with qualified midwives, but I can definitely see the appeal.

Beyond selfish imo. These women should remember it's not their birth, but their baby's.

i still don't understand what goodness can be coming from the afterbirth days after birth, when it's just rotting.

Exactly! The evidence is there for delayed cord clamping, but what could possibly be to gain from leaving the placenta attached long after the cord has stopped pulsing?

miaowthecat I agree with you. The smugness ruined the image of the free birthed, and it felt there was an element of entitled behaviour, with little regard for the baby's welfare. My (hulking hairy-backed rugby-player) husband would have been horrified if asked to take that responsibility, and would have talked me out of it, & would have pragmatically evaluated the potential problems against the wish to go it alone

Having said that, I felt sorry for the C-section woman who seemed very brittle & unhappy. Truly the other end of the scale.

The water birth was beautiful.

"I support any woman's right to abort a foetus up until birth in theory. For me a foetus has no rights over the mothers right until it's born so it's up to the mother."

But surely an unattended birth is hazardous for the mother too, Ilovemycatsandkids? What if the baby is born safely, but the mum ends up with severe birth injuries that could have been prevented if she had had qualified support, or even dies?

Not to mention the fact that these women do not want to abort their babies (which means wanting no live baby at the end of the process), they want a living, healthy baby. How would they live with themselves if they chose to free-birth, and something went wrong and their baby either died or suffered life-altering injuries at birth - a death/injury that could have been prevented, with the right professional care?

I had home births with ds2 and ds3, and they were both amazing experiences. I had wonderful midwives, who were very pro-home birth, and whom I utterly trusted. I trusted their instincts too - as a nurse myself, I believe that you can get a sixth sense about things, so if any of the midwives who attended the births had said that they were worried, but couldn't put their finger on why they were worried, we would have got in the car and gone to hospital.

Notso

for your shocking precipitate labour. It sounds unexpected and quite traumatic for you.

But ...

"I don't believe birth isn't messy either. Our bathroom looked like a horrendous crime scene afterwards which poor DH who hate the sight of blood had to clean up.Even after my hospital births there has been loads of blood all over the floor that has needed mopping. A plastic shower curtains and a few care mats wouldn't have been enough."

At a planned home birth the bleeding (which mostly happens in the period after the baby's born), and the amniotic fluid is contained within the plastic sheeting and inco pads that the Midwives bring with them. Because it's expected it can be contained (usually) in one place. Before they leave they gather it all, and ensure any mess is cleaned up after. In a hospital the same thing happens. It probably looks like a lot to you, but if you spilled a mug full if blood over your floor it would look like loads. In reality its about 500ml & easily & quickly cleaned up.

"Two of my babies needed oxygen straight after my text book easy hospital births. If I was at home with DH after having them they might be dead."

Of course I don't know your personal circumstances, but to reassure you, home birth midwives carry the same basic resuscitation equipment with them that is available in hospital. If your babies had needed oxygen straight after birth they could have it just as easily at home as in hospital.

"I don't understand when their is so much at stake why you wouldn't put the health and well being of your baby over your own need for a perfect magical experience you will more than likely drone on about for the rest of your days."

Homebirthers would say the same: When we know that for the majority of low risk women and babies it's safer to give birth at home or in a midwife unit (wrap.warwick.ac.uk/46562/) - why would you put the health and well being of your baby over your own desire to be in a hospital?

"Homebirthers would say the same: When we know that for the majority of low risk women and babies it's safer to give birth at home or in a midwife unit (wrap.warwick.ac.uk/46562/) - why would you put the health and well being of your baby over your own desire to be in a hospital?"

There's a massive difference between home birthing with an experienced assistant and freebirthing, though - haven't seen anyone here saying that regular home births are dangerous/selfish, just the scenario of someone LITERALLY GIVING BIRTH ON THEIR OWN.

And yes, I do think the unassisted thing is very much about having some kind of magical experience. The woman I know who did it had had a shitty birth experience first time round (which, fair enough, was definitely a reason to avoid the particular hospital model she'd used) and had basically convinced herself that the only way to feel confident and empowered in her ability to give birth was to have no help whatsoever. As it happened, everything went fine and she went on (extensively) about how "badass", incredibly powerful, psychically healed, warrior mama etc. she was for doing it unassisted. (I eyerolled)

"But surely an unattended birth is hazardous for the mother too, Ilovemycatsandkids? What if the baby is born safely, but the mum ends up with severe birth injuries that could have been prevented if she had had qualified support, or even dies?"

here

This is interesting. A look at outcomes for mothers and babies who gave birth before arrival of health professional (ie born out of hospital but not planned homebirth)

There was a higher than average neonatal mortality and morbidity rate, but it seems this was due to prematurity and low birth weight, rather than to the lack of a qualified midwife or doctor. The main reason for bba babies being admitted to hospital was hypothermia...

I'm not sure that anyone knows what the risks of unassisted childbirth are in a modern context where the mother has had adequate antenatal care, and can request medical input if things go awry. I would assume that many women planning to freebirth have scans and midwife input during pregnancy. I'd also assume that they would mostly be willing to phone an ambulance in the event of things going very badly wrong.

In other words, I'm not sure than anyone can actually quantify the risks of freebirthing in any sort of meaningful way, as there simply isn't enough research into the outcomes. Comparing it to women giving birth unassisted in developing countries is pointless - women giving birth without medical support in those settings have often had no antenatal care, no scans, may be malnourished or suffering from HIV or anaemia, and have poor access to high tech medical care in the event of a bleed or a non-progressing labour.

That makes sense, minifingers - but for me, the issue is that problems can occur, for mother or baby, without warning - regardless of where the birth is taking place, but if there is a qualified person attending the birth, then I would assume that there's a higher (possibly much higher) likelihood of the problem being detected early, and appropriately treated, to minimise the risk to mother and/or baby.

Yes, the mother can request medical help if things go awry, as you say - but an unqualified, inexperienced birth supporter may not recognise the signs that something is going awry as fast as a qualified person would, and there would probably be a delay whilst that medical help arrives - and that delay could prove crucial.

I find this a really bizarre thing to want to do. What the hell is the benefit to refusing modern medical assistance in childbirth, which is statistically a pretty dangerous activity?

To draw a comparison, I don't know anyone who practices 'Free Teeth' and refuses fillings or root canal surgery just because of some woolly fantasy of people in other countries having lovely, natural teeth

I don't think it's that useful to compare outcomes for BBAs (birth before arrival if anyone cares) to free-birthing to be honest.

There's all manner of situations that could slow down or prevent the baby coming out that obviously wouldn't occur in a BBA, or else you have time to get to hospital and/or wait for medical assistance.

My first labour was just over 2 hours from the first contraction to her being born. We made it to hospital but I know that next time (hoping for another) I won't make it as we live an hour's drive away. A home birth is probably our only option but the thought that the midwives might not make it in time ( rural area) terrifies me. Why anyone would choose to be in that situation is beyond my understanding.

No - I understand what you're saying.

The thing is that there's an absence of evidence about planned unassisted birth in a healthy population of women with good access to antenatal care and emergency medical assistance.

Doesn't seem to stop people making emphatic noises about how dangerous it is.

Personally I wouldn't want to come to a conclusion without looking at the evidence.

"To draw a comparison, I don't know anyone who practices 'Free Teeth' and refuses fillings or root canal surgery"

To draw a comparison, going to the dentist won't cause your teeth to rot, whereas some people believe that observing labour and interfering with the labouring woman can actually cause things to go shit-shaped.

It's a well known principle in veterinary medicine isn't it? Don't routinely fuck around with a labouring mammal - putting your hand into its birth canal every few hours just to see if everything is still normal, touch it, sticking it on a truck and moving it around etc. Because vets know that if you do that it can make everything become dysfunctional. Well, some people believe that human labour can also be made dysfunctional by being observed and routinely interfered with.

I wouldn't 'freebirth' myself by the way, or recommend anyone else do it. I just think it's a good idea to try understand other people's choices.

I found the Lotus woman and free birther hippy just both so very arrogant. I just don't see the point to it, other than to PROVE something, and what is that? What pisses me off as well, is that if the shit hits the fan they'll be rushed to hospital demanding that medical assistance they just didn't need.

There are women in the developing world who die along with their babies because they can't get medical attention, when they'd give their right arm for it. Try and explain the concept and point of free birthing by choice to them.

But I suppose leaving the placenta attached would be a way to keep visitors away for eight days And the program said 'there is no scientific proof that this has any benefits' So what is the point?! Other than to be seriously minging!?

I would not choose a free birth. I had my DC in hospital and had intervention. However some children do arrive unexpectedly and I would hate the mother to be accused of not trying hard enough to alert medical professionals. So can/should we really be trying to enforce medical intervention?

I look at it this way, minifingers - there is, I believe, evidence available to show that birth can go wrong, for mother and/or baby - regardless of the setting. If we accept that birth is a risky time for both mother and baby, then we should also accept that it is our responsibility to take reasonable steps to detect problems early, and deal with them.

That said, I think you make a very important point about non-interference in the birth process. We have to be careful to make sure that the precautions we take don't end up causing more problems down the line.

For example, when I was doing my nurse training, and did my stint in Obstetrics, it was pretty routine at our hospital for scalp monitoring to be applied to the baby's head, to keep a constant watch on them during labour. This was thought to be a Good Thing, because problems could be detected early - but in order to apply the scalp electrode, they had to break the woman's waters, which has its risks, and can make labour suddenly accelerate and become much more painful, plus the women were tied to the monitor by the wire, and thus couldn't move around as much or as easily, and that led to problems with labours too. And I believe it did sometimes lead to unnecessary interventions, when doctors reacted very conservatively to what they were seeing on the monitor.

I think it takes 8 - 20 days for the placenta to detach with the lotus birth i.e. whenever the cord falls off.

YANBU, OP, I think freebirthing is a world away from homebirthing and I wouldn't take that risk for myself or for my unborn baby/babies. I also wouldn't want to put my DH in the position that lady's partner was in.

whosafraidofnaomiwolf thanks it was incredibly traumatic for us.

WRT my comments about the mess. I lost a lot of blood after DC2,3 and 4. It was much more than the average amount. After DC2 in particular I kept asking the midwife to turn the tap off as it was annoying me but it was actually the sound of the blood splattering on the floor. This was one of the reasons home birth wasn't advised for me.

My other comments about my babies needing oxygen and the health of the baby v's the needs of the mother were referring to planned unassisted birth not home birth. I am not anti-home birth.
I would have loved planned home births myself but as I said I was advised against it.

"I found the Lotus woman and free birther hippy just both so very arrogant. I just don't see the point to it, other than to PROVE something, and what is that? What pisses me off as well, is that if the shit hits the fan they'll be rushed to hospital demanding that medical assistance they just didn't need."

I knew there'd be people bitching about them daring to believe that they could have straightforward births.

People have their own magical thinking around birth - leave them to it. Birth is hard enough as it is and all woman need to find a way of making it bearable for themselves.

"I look at it this way, minifingers - there is, I believe, evidence available to show that birth can go wrong, for mother and/or baby - regardless of the setting"

And there is evidence that c-sections can go horrifically wrong and leave the mother in intensive care or dead. But we don't go pontificating about women choosing to give birth in settings where there are incredibly high rates of c-section.

"And I believe it did sometimes lead to unnecessary interventions, when doctors reacted very conservatively to what they were seeing on the monitor."

Yes - I'm sure you are right. It probably resulted in some babies contracting Gbs, and maybe (depending on whether it was done in the days before routine HIV testing in pregnancy) HIV.

All choices have risks. All of them do.

The woman is question refused to take any of the emergency phone numbers the midwife offered her.