To complain to Sunday Times on "UK girls flop" headline

[Duckdeamon]

Today's Sunday times (can't link as they have a paywall) has an article about the UK having one of the biggest gender gaps in science at age 15 of 67 countries (upcoming OECD/ Pisa report). Article is interesting: through quotes it discusses sexism, science and maths and technology leading to well paid job opportunities, that girls are being prevented from doing, gender imbalances in science, and evidence that girls are as good at maths and science as boys.

But why use the headline "UK girls flop in science league"? Which suggests that the girls are at fault!

The results are shocking, and girls are being let down.

I don't really see a problem with the headline myself, it's up to girls themselves to close this gap, given the appropriate help and support, of course.

Cheers!

I don't really see a problem with the headline myself, it's up to girls themselves to close this gap, given the appropriate help and support, of course.

Really? Not the messages they receive from a young age that STEM subjects are for boys? The lack of visible role models? The marketing of toys that marks out science and engineering toys as 'boys' toys' while girls are steered towards crafts and dolls? Careers advice that steers pupils, particularly girls who are assumed to be more interested in medicine than engineering, away from studying physics? An exam system that discourages students away from the 'toughest' subjects?

No, let's leave it up to teenage girls to sort out. It's all on them.

Absolutely, MartinJD - schools, colleges and universities actively encourage female participation in STEM subjects. It's up to the girls to make it work, like any subject! Just because there is a gap that has been acknowledged doesn't mean they are being sexist, it means that our female population need to work harder and succeeding in these areas. Females in other countries do and it's usually down to personal work ethic, of course that's a generalisation but there is a large proportion of students in this country who lack the work ethic required to succeed.

I know plenty of female STEM students who do exceptionally well, I also know a few who don't and I can tell you who puts the most effort and dedication in.

Assuming that the student is not at fault and trying to blame others is letting them down.

Jessy that was certainly the case in the last, definitely not true now.

*past

At what age can people at school be expected to take responsibility for their own decisions about what they want to pursue and what to drop?

After GCSE?

The point must come.

Slightly o/t but I hope of interest. I spent the first two years of my grammar school time - before my family moved to London - at a very good school where the Head decided to end the rule that boys did woodwork and girls did cookery. The woodwork room and kitchen would only house half a class - he was stuck with that - so he asked the parents of the next group of joiners, before they left their primary schools, what their children would prefer. And added that then he would draw lots to decide who did what.

But this was 1965 and he knew that many of the parents would take a sexist view (we did not even use the word then) and would also be concerned about their children being teased and bullied. So he asked the head-teachers of the feeder primaries, in stick confidence, to name the boys and girls who would be the ring-leaders in the teasing and bullying. And would you believe it? They were the ones who found themselves doing the "wrong" subject, and it went smoothly and without much ill-effect.

That's the way to do it!

So to the pp who say there's no sexism whatsoever in this area any more - are you saying, then, that girls are intrinsically less capable of doing well studying STEM subjects, and/or just don't work as hard as boys?

I am a science teacher and to be honest I just teach the subject. I haven't studied this in too much detail, but there isn't any obvious gender bias either way. The subject is what it is. The curriculum is put into the context of the real world as much as possible and not the abstract theoretical angle that many may suppose puts girls off. (Although I find that idea very patronising.)

I don't like the article headline either. It does put the blame on girls. Or could be seen as "UK girls are crap", which further re-enforces the idea that girls aren't good at maths and science. Confidence is a critical issue. Girls can be very unconfident at that age, so may choose subjects that they think are easier or it is more manageable to get the grades, given the right revision guide. Girls are much more suspectible to inference as well. Boys can ignore or treat subtle undermining as a challenge, but girls will take it on board more.

There in the spirit of mass-generalisation (see above), I conclude that this is society's problem. Whereby continual attention to the "problem" of girls being worse at science and maths, compounds the problem. Also today's Katie Price/selfie-taking/looking-cool on facebook culture means that a woman's value is perceived more to be based on her looks than her intellect.

More role models are needed. There are more female science e

Oops...pressed a button. It wasn't important anyway.

Blink, there's plenty of evidence that while it's improved, it's nowhere near universal yet. And some things (such as segregated marketing of children's toys) have deteriorated in the last decade.

Fewer female students study these subjects. Are the right ones choosing to study them? Those with an equal chance of success? Doubtful, given the other structural issues.

The IoP report on careers advice was from 2013. Not that long in the past.

46% of English schools sent no girls to study physics in 2011. The national average for girls studying physics at A level is 20%

That's not 'lazy girls', and the fact that other countries have better results demonstrates it's not lack of innate female ability. We have a cultural problem.

GetSober: I don't think anyone is saying either of those things really. The individual must take responsibility for his or her actions, regardless of gender. The fact that this gap has been recognised isn't inherently "sexist" in itself, quite the opposite, in fact.

Cheers!

I didnt connect with science in school and wasnt encouraged to. I found the lessons were pretty 'male centric' - thr male teachers would make little explosions or colourful fires for fun lessons and the labs were full of pickled animals in jars whoch grossed me out so much I had trouble actually looking up fron my desk. I'm not even a 'girly girl' but none of it spoke to me.

"The individual must take responsibility for his or her actions"

There, look, Martin, you said it again. You said that if girls (as a group) are not doing as well as boys (as a group), it's all down to the girls themselves to sort it out. So it must be their own fault, in some way, that they are underachieving at present.

Not that I'm really sure why I'm bothering with this argument when I could be having a nap...

I and friends were desperate to do woodwork and engineering drawing. We were physically ejected from the class... We had breasts after all.

Instead we (all bright,clever, girls) were expected to learn how to iron a shirt and how to wash clothes...obvously unimportant for blokes to learn... 1950s?nah! 1979...were they learning similarly useful, sexist claptrap... No! they played games whilst we were given this message about our future station in life...

There you go, IamtheDevilsAvocado - If you'd been in my school in 1965 my head-teacher, years ahead of his time, would have looked after you!

I'm only sorry that he started this scheme one year too late for me. I enjoyed woodwork in a mild way but was useless (not to say dangerous) at it; my time would have been more usefully employed in the kitchen.

If your male contemporaries were wasting their time, apart from that being a reflection on the teacher concerned, it suggests that they were being short-changed too.

I am a science teacher and to be honest I just teach the subject.

This, i'm afraid, is indicative of the laissez faire attitude I fear alot of our teachers suffer from. There seems to be Little or no real drive and determination to eulogise about Sci/Tech and really push students (both male and female) into the industry.

Perhaps this is partly due to many teachers lacking life experience? Many of them not having actually worked in Sci/Tech and hence failing to grasp the fantastic opportunities that exist for young people in this field, and therefore not passing that passion on to their students.

Cheers!

GetSober: You seem to be miss understanding what i'm saying. Re-read my post, you will find that at no point am I generalising about girls as "groups" as you say. I'm focusing on the individual, regardless of gender.

Cheers!

Ok, fine, I'll break it down a little further. So for every individual student who is not succeeding at STEM subjects, you're saying it's entirely their own fault and not due to societal issues in any way?

Boys are woefully underperforming in English, it's a national crisis in terms of literacy levels.

Should they just be told to work harder?

Good grief.

Where have all the rampant sexist appeared from? Ah yes if females in UK science are under-represented across the board, in a way they are not in other countries, it must be because UK females are as a species disinterested in science and probably shit at it. There is absolutely no way that it can be anything to do with UK society that has produced this UK phenomenon which differs from other countries

I mean, hard of thinking or what?

The females in the UK are the same species as females elsewhere on the planet. And yet, when shown that the ones here are not participating in something when they do everywhere else, the conclusion must be not that the society is different, but that the females are at some fundamental level?

I don't think it's only UK girls who need a bit more assistance with science is it

Also agree with NG - so the hooha about boys not reading - we can stop worrying about that, they need to take personal responsibility? Great! Let's get the money saved and plough it into anti-sexism-in-schools initiatives.

Ha missed some words out The female are at some fundamental level different.

When did UK girls and women evolve to be different? Is it because we're on an Island?

Could it be anything to do with this?

UK society extremely sexist says UN ambassador

Of course not! Women who think there might be a connection are probably being a bit silly. They aren't very logical bless them and thinking too hard about complicated stuff can overheat their heads, best leave the tricky stuff to the men eh

What about this from the Institute of Physics research in 2012:

"Girls were almost two and a half times more likely to go on to do A-level physics if they came from a girls’ school rather than a co-ed school (for all types of maintained schools in England)"

Not seeing any of this could be down to sexist attitudes, no sirreee. It's obvious that girls are just shit at science. Oh and throwing. And running. And lots of things actually now I come to think of it! That's probably why they don't get paid so much

Noblegiraffe - can I pm you about something slightly off topic, please?

On topic: dd loves maths. She is now in a class with a lot of boys (not the case previously) and I watch her confidence seeping away.
I really wish an all-girls school had been an option for us.