To complain to Sunday Times on "UK girls flop" headline

[Duckdeamon]

Today's Sunday times (can't link as they have a paywall) has an article about the UK having one of the biggest gender gaps in science at age 15 of 67 countries (upcoming OECD/ Pisa report). Article is interesting: through quotes it discusses sexism, science and maths and technology leading to well paid job opportunities, that girls are being prevented from doing, gender imbalances in science, and evidence that girls are as good at maths and science as boys.

But why use the headline "UK girls flop in science league"? Which suggests that the girls are at fault!

The results are shocking, and girls are being let down.

My kids school has a day once a term where the kids are mixed between year groups and can choose what subject they spend the day going eg music, art, dance, PE, science, literacy. Sometimes they choose themselves, sometimes the teacher suggests (although teacher could just divide as they please). In year 2 my DS did science - only 2 girls in the group. I brought it up with the teacher - she was aware of the issues ( and is keen on science herself) - said the next special day would be all science for the whole school ( so that's ok...) But the message those girls received was that science is not what ( the majority) of girls do. Funnily enough by the time they can do after school clubs in key stage 2 - only 3 girls pick the STEM club.

This problem is ingrained in education from the earliest stages.

catfromjapan of course!

Thank you.

Strangely, I never see articles complaining that there aren't enough men aspiring to be make up artists; and how unacceptable it is that we don't have more male nurses. Why should gender or race of person make any difference?

As long as the person (white / black / male / female / other) is fit for the job thats all that matters.

Why do you think those articles don't exist, Martin?

Cheers!

Aw, Martin, it took you far too long to come back with what is really quite an inadequate reply.

I feel let down, dude

(incidentally I have read articles talking about the lack of men in nursing and especially teaching. I don't remember reading any about make-up artistry though, so you can have that one)

lol getsober

"Strangely, I never see articles complaining that there aren't enough men aspiring to be make up artists; and how unacceptable it is that we don't have more male nurses. Why should gender or race of person make any difference"

Here you go, Martin:

www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/blog/2014/may/19/widening-participation-student-experience-award

See also:

Mumsnet thread about low numbers of men working in childcare

another thread about men in childcare, where one poster gets a well deserved pasting for airing sexist concerns about male nursery workers.

Oh look, another one

...

So it's been absolutely fine in the past for grammar schools to skew results so that more able girls are not given places over less able boys... but no, girls must take responsibility for themselves in STEM subjects, where we are constantly told girls don't do this, girls don't do that.

I was put off engineering by being constantly told that it's not what girls do - and that isn't decades ago; I'm 20. A girl who does engineering is assumed to be butch and manly. A girl who does science and maths is a swot. And yet there's little said about male engineers, or male STEM subject studiers.

Anyone who says there's no sexism is wrong.

You get lots of articles about the over-representation of women in lower-paid jobs - and the related phenomenon of men in higher-paid jobs. I think this story is, in fact, in the same category.
As for men in education: oddly enough men are, indeed, under-represented in the lower ranks but - and I am so very, very unsurprised about this - a disproportionately high presence in the well-paid, leadership positions.
It's such a boring, sad story.
I desperately want it to be different for my dd. sadly, despite the fact that I am determined to fight for her, I really feel I am out-gunned by an inclement society and culture.

why is it getting worse though? I have studied and worked in STEM all my life since I made my O levels and A level choices. I did biology, physics and chemistry A level (though I disliked Physics, I have to say). in those days girls were in the minority but I wasn't the only girl in physics and chemistry and biology were pretty much 50/50. so was university.

At my children's school it seems far more divided. All the top brains are boys pretty much - or at least the ones that care and compete are, and I have yet to meet a girl doing science subjects - I ask every
girl I come across, friends daughters that come to babysit, on school tours etc.

I reckon it is a cultural problem. The UK has become more sexist since my day, or at least, the gender division has become more fixed and entrenched. You only have to walk into a toy shop now and see the ridiculous pink and blue aisles of toys, girls Lego and pink and blue kinder eggs etc etc. Society wasn't like that when we were young, kids played with toys, largely.

I mean it wasn't great when I was young, I was a strong character and has to realky fight to compete with the boys, and I was labeled as a nerd and ostrezised by the cool girls, all the things you expect as a girl doing STEM. that was hard but not insurmountable now. Can you imagine how much harder it is for girls now in the days of social media, cyber bullying? surrounded by "role models" like Katie price and TOWIE where looks mean everything and intelligence matters not. so much harder for girls now I think.

On the teaching thing.

When the economic crisis hit there was a large upswing in men applying for teacher training.

Which showed that the reason they hadn't been applying previously wasn't, as had been suggested, to do with being put off by it being a "female" profession or whatever, but in fact it was due to financial concerns. When the money in the private sector looked less safe, teaching suddenly became a more attractive option. Before, when there was more money available elsewhere, they were happy to leave it to the women.

There is also the phenomenon of erosion of pay / respect afforded to roles as they become more dominated by women. Which is telling and really depressing.

GetSober : So for every individual student who is not succeeding at STEM subjects, you're saying it's entirely their own fault and not due to societal issues in any way?

No, that is an over-simplistic analysis.

Cheers!

What ARE you saying, then? Because it sounded like pretty much exactly what I said.

And have you anything to say in reply to any of the other points raised?

Oh. Or I guess you could be saying that societal issues could be at least partly to blame, but nevertheless, it's down to the individual to solve them all himself-or-herself.

Is that it?

totally agree pp.

incidentally, I now work in a fairly specialised STEM field and have done for more than 15 years. In that time I have never, ever, worked in a team that had any other women in it! isn't that mad? sure there've been peripheral project managers and HR people and indeed senior managers who were women. But at the coal face, with the techies, no women apart from me. In almost 20 years. In 5 different organisations. isn't that insane? bet its the same in engineering as well. Probably better in smaller companies I guess (hope) but is still find is crazy that 50% of the population is whittled down to one woman working in this field. (biological woman I should say as I have worked with a trans woman, but that's a whole other thread and she was working in the same area before transitioning)

'I was put off engineering by being constantly told that it's not what girls do - and that isn't decades ago; I'm 20. A girl who does engineering is assumed to be butch and manly. A girl who does science and maths is a swot. And yet there's little said about male engineers, or male STEM subject studiers.'

I am curious about this. Whom were you constantly told by? I suspect not by your science teachers at school (I sincerely hope not). A lot of this seems to be peer pressure, as much by girls as boys. Where that comes from with all the positive messages about girls and STEM in the mainstream media is hard to fathom.

There was a huge push in my school to get girls to do science (late 90s). I remember being called into a student-teacher conference to explain why on earth, when I had top gcse maths and science grades, did I not want to do maths and science Alevel. Apparently not really being interested in either was not a good enough reason

The thing is, what causes that 'not being interested'? You see, it may feel like an individual inclination but the statistics suggest otherwise.

What were your interests babydubs, what A-Levels did you do?

Were you forced to take the maths / sciences in the end? (That sort of thing went on at DH school, unfortunately).

I agree with thecat that on an individual level we all have our interests and preferences but at a society level this would suggest that girls "just aren't interested" in certain things which coincidentally are the same things that are "traditionally male", and can lead to many lucrative roles.

FWIW I did sciences and many people were openly surprised when they asked what my a-levels were, or what my degree was, in a way that they weren't for males. So it is there, it's not imaginary, that people think "girls don't do that stuff" and of course girls absorb these messages from a young age.

My dad is an engineer, a hugely successful one come to that, all the innovating projects he worked on bored me to tears! I loved history and English lit, I was told I was being ridiculous to waste my efforts on such fanciful subjects when I could do really well in STEM ones... I refused to change, but left altogether after a month as the whole process made me lose the love for learning tbh.
I have gone back to uni as a mature student - I do Ancient and Medieval history and I LOVE it!

Funny that a much larger proportion of girls in all girls schools choose and succeed at STEM subjects isn't it?

In most schools and in society girls are still being given the message that these subjects (and careers) are for boys. It is most certainly not up to teenage girls to address this on their own, it is for society to stamp out prejudice on the basis of gender.