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Original poster

To complain to Sunday Times on "UK girls flop" headline

211 replies

Duckdeamon · 22/02/2015 08:38

Today's Sunday times (can't link as they have a paywall) has an article about the UK having one of the biggest gender gaps in science at age 15 of 67 countries (upcoming OECD/ Pisa report). Article is interesting: through quotes it discusses sexism, science and maths and technology leading to well paid job opportunities, that girls are being prevented from doing, gender imbalances in science, and evidence that girls are as good at maths and science as boys.

But why use the headline "UK girls flop in science league"? Which suggests that the girls are at fault!

The results are shocking, and girls are being let down.

OP posts:
Andrewofgg · 22/02/2015 15:49

PilchardPrincess* In the Nineties when thee were only a handful of women driving Tube Trains one of the few won a discrim. case based on the refusal to allow her to refuse early and late shifts.

Now that a substantial proportion of them are women, what happens, do you know?

PilchardPrincess · 22/02/2015 16:01

Ooh I dunno.

I'll ask one of my friends when I see them.

I can't imagine that men & women doing the same job have different contracts around shift working TBH. DH works for the same employer and there are no differentials. They get shift allowance for a start on his job which is the reason they say that none of them are allowed to work PT (male or female). It's a bugger as it would suit us down to the ground if he could go PT.

PilchardPrincess · 22/02/2015 16:03

I do know that on the tube they have some kind of fixed holiday system (you get what you're given) which can't be very good for the ones who have children (if their allocation doesn't tie in with school hols in the year) but DH says there are so many of them they manage to swap around and stuff and it works out OK. That is a bit third hand though so I don't know. They want to bring it in for DH job and we're a bit worried as there aren't enough of them to swap and they all have kids! So potentially facing no hols with DH and the kids which seems a bit crap. That's definitely not a "family friendly" policy is it!

PilchardPrincess · 22/02/2015 16:04

Well if it's true.

Getting accurate info around all this is a bit blood out of a stone TBH. There's a lot of rumour and scaremongering. So don't quote me on any of that! They def aren't allowed to work PT though male or female.

Andrewofgg · 22/02/2015 16:04

Please update me Pilchard.

My guess is that to make special terms for single parents would be seen as indirect discrimination against men as there are so few men in that position and the non-single-parents would have to work more earlies and lates. And I doubt that that would pass muster as a proportionate response to a genuine need of the business, that being the test.

PilchardPrincess · 22/02/2015 16:06

Do you have a link to that tube driver shift case I'm really interested and google isn't bringing anything up.

PilchardPrincess · 22/02/2015 16:09

Was that what the woman's case was about,her being a single parent?

I'm still not having any luck finding it.

PilchardPrincess · 22/02/2015 16:12

Oh I think I found it!

When DH asked they told him to fuck off, as they did his female colleagues. So, um. There you have it!

Andrewofgg · 22/02/2015 16:19

Edwards -v- London Transport: I will post a link tomorrow from the office.

PilchardPrincess · 22/02/2015 16:21

Thanks!

Andrewofgg · 22/02/2015 16:29

London Underground Ltd v Edwards (No 2) [1997] IRLR 157

There was an earlier stage but I can't find it. If you have access to that one you will find the reference.

Lilymaid · 22/02/2015 17:59

If it is the EAT decision it is on BAILII. Sorry, my iPad linking skills are hopeless!

Andrewofgg · 22/02/2015 18:40

There were two stages of Edwards litigation; one went to the Court of Appeal and one only to the EAT IIRC.

ManOfSpiel · 22/02/2015 18:43

I heard a talk from a woman in Engineering who went to visit sites (I forget her job title) and she said the biggest problem was the outrageous attitude towards her by the men.

What sort of engineering was that, do you remember?

Seems very much at odds from the places where I work.

HeartbrokenWifeOfMillionaire · 22/02/2015 18:52

The sunday times is a pile of shite, really.

Rupert Murdoch no doubt is something of a "flop" which is why his young wife left him Hmm

PilchardPrincess · 22/02/2015 19:15

Well no that's why I said I forgot her job title!

I can't think of a reason she wouldn't have been telling the truth Smile

ManOfSpiel · 22/02/2015 19:24

It's ok Pilchard. Most engineering companies have very generic titles so it may not be obvious what industry you're in. Hence my asking.

I'm not disputing what was claimed but would be shocked if she were from mine.

PilchardPrincess · 22/02/2015 19:26

I got the feeling she was going out alone to check sites which were being run / developed or whatever the word is by smaller companies.

The woman from crossrail said things were excellent in her world.

ManOfSpiel · 22/02/2015 20:02

I work in the aero/space/defence side of things and whilst we're not perfect, are making great strides (or trying hard) to improve the under representation situation. I believe it is working, but slowly.

Female leads, Chiefs or responsible engineers have been driving things for some time now and although we could do with more in higher positions, it will come with time. Certainly we have many more female role models than when I first started my career so am sure this will encourage more women in.

The big issue with the uk of course is the terrible perception. Not just with sexism (which in our case is a bit undeserved) but just that engineering is not a desirable field to work. This leads to terrible remuneration so the ratio of 'study to salary' is extremely poor.

themummyonthebus · 22/02/2015 20:10

I'm an Aero engineer. I did my gcses at a mixed school with fantastic teachers and a gender blind attitude (early 90's). I did my A-levels at a girls school with some of the last inspiring teachers I have ever had the misfortune to come across. I was the only one in my year group to want to go into engineering and there was only a handful of girls wanting to study science (=biology) further. Very depressing.

Uni was very male heavy to start with but by the time we reached the final year many more men than women had dropped out so we were probably 25% female in my graduation group. We didn't all go into engineering and I would estimate that the female proportion of those of us who did was more along the lines of 10% of the graduate group.

I have worked since the late 90s in overwhelmingly male environments, except for my last post where we were 50% female (but this was a role in marketing, not engineering). I've just been promoted to director level and I'm back to being the only woman... But I have had the most amazing career up to now and wouldn't be doing anything else. The opportunities you have one you've studied engineering are just amazing - if you can get an engineering degree then you can do anything, and recruiters seem to acknowledge that.

Dingit Your dd is making a fabulous choice.

themummyonthebus · 22/02/2015 20:22

Forgot to say, there are more and more women making it into middle management positions. They are lacking at VP or C level but I'm hopeful that there will be a wave coming through in the next decade - the numbers of my peers at director level are growing fast and many of us have young families so no excuse to drop out or fail to progress due to family commitments. I'm hopeful for the future for those of us in, or entering, the industry. I'm extremely depressed to think that the pipeline is closing down. Things were looking so good during the 90s.

NoCryingInEngineering · 22/02/2015 21:40

Outrageous attitude from men on site has not been my general experience either. The only exception was when reporting a breach of operating procedure and most of that was inter company politics

Tobyjugg · 22/02/2015 22:03

To get back to the original question, YABU to complain about the headline. It has worked perfectly in that it got you (& others) to read the article and start a discussion about it. That's all it's intended to do, after all.

ManOfSpiel · 22/02/2015 22:12

Indeed. You only need to look at all the 'click bait' articles on the Guardian and Telegraph to realise that these papers come up with purposely provocative headlines to hook you in.

vivideye · 22/02/2015 23:07

martin JD

you don't really see the problem............because you and the attitudes you promote are actually part of the problem. And you are also perpetuating the problem - nice.

Professions which tend to recruit either men OR women are loosing out because they only really draw from half the potential recruitment pool. It is no good for anyone.

Ignoring trends and pushing the responsibility for widespread and systemic failure onto individuals (and in this case we are talking about children or very young adults having to take responsibility for systems they didn't create and have little control over) is missing the point entirely. Unless the systemic failure is addressed the minorities of either sex enter the same profession as the majorities but do so from vastly different starting points, which is inherently unfair.

So there are not just practical but moral reasons for wanting to improve the world we live in.

I found your posts pretty deplorable actually.

Cheers!