To object to paying two lots of council tax

[googlenut]

We pay really high rates on our own property. We have a rental property - a small flat- which we have been unable to rent. We have just been faced with a £650 council tax bill. If we had students in it the flat would be exempt, if we had one person in it we would get 25% discount but instead we have to pay the full amount when it is empty. I just can't see the fairness of this - but willing to listen if someone can explain the justice of it.

Thank you Bbc Essex for getting it. If there were three students in using three persons worth of services they would pay no council tax as students are exempt. If one person moved in they would get 25% discount. House empty we pay full wack.

Shit or get off the pot.
Your choice OP, you have 2 properties, I would imagine you are wanting to make a profit from the second, you have obviously over priced the property and that is the reason it is empty... which either means you are greedy or you have over stretched. Maybe you need a re-think.
It's tough that you have to pay what everyone who has a house pays and why should you be subed?
We have rental property (inherited with a elderly tenant who has the house for life and no rent increase) and I wouldn't dream of coming here and bitching, it's rude when so many, many people aren't so fortunate, who work bloody hard and still can't get on the ladder because of overinflated rents and haven't the luxury of sitting on a pot of money if all goes tits up.

Sorry, but YABU. After all, if your rental property went on fire, you'd expect the fire service to come out, or the police if it was broken into. This is why you pay council tax.

Empty houses that have been repossessed don't attract council tax. Why should private owners have to pay but Bank owners don't?

Houses where the occupant has been made bankrupt don't attract council tax.

Up until very recently, councils used to offer some form of temporary exemption for empty rentals when they were unfurnished.. rentals CAN often fall empty for a period of time between tenants, even when the rent is low.

Council tax is supposed to pay for services (remember the Poll tax anyone?). It shouldn't be a penalty of owning a property - stamp duty and capital gains tax are the taxes BTL owners pay for that privilege.

*AllThePrettySeahorses" - I agree there should be a contribution for static services such as you've quoted.. but charging full whack doesn't equate.

most councils have now stopped the empty property discounts; freezes in council tax means they cannot afford it. Get a tenant in and they pay the tax.

I agree (as a landlord) that this is part of the business. Among all the bile spitting I've not been able to find any response from you as to why it won't rent. If it is overpriced, you will have to drop the rent. But is that the reason?

remember that to most on here, being a landlord is less acceptable than being Jimmy Savile. Doesn't matter if you worked hard to buy that property, or are unable to sell it for some entirely valid reason. Doesn't matter how well it is maintained, or how much a tenant may have mucked you about or stolen from you. As a landlord, on mumsnet you are guilty whatever the situation.

bbcessex

So you are suggesting that the policing of the empty property should be paid for by everyone else apart from the person that owns the property, the same with street lights, schools, fire-brigade etc?

As for

"rentals CAN often fall empty for a period of time between tenants, even when the rent is low."

That is part of what you signed up for when you became a landlord.

We became accidental landlords. My MIL passed away and we were forced to purchase a house for her "boyfriend" to live in despite the fact her will stated everything went to her son (DH) and GCs. Once sorted we were to leave him to live in peace in the property for as long as he lived or vacated it for a period of 2 months or more. (The whole situation had got particularly nasty, driven by his family and ex wife-not sure he really knew what was going on).
Some years later we received a demand for council tax and informed the council the house was occupied and had been for 3 years. They informed us the council tax hadn't been paid for 6 mths since the occupier moved out, so now needed paying again. Unbeknown to us the old man had been moved into residential care and his family were now using the house. Once we finally regained possession-they had changed the locks-house was a disgrace so we renovated prior to selling-still paying council tax. Had no viewings at all despite pricing it very competitively, so the place is now rented. So it is a pain in the arse having to pay it but unfortunately we all have to.

People who don't understand how taxation works...seriously. Tax isn't a menu where you pick out which bits you use.

I don't have a problem with OP having 2 properties.

It's her having a problem with some of the downsides of having 2 properties that I object to.

Especially was the full CT situation was caused by her setting the rent too high which deterred possible tenants.

Honestly, I cannot see the 'unfairness' to OP in this situation at all.

In answer to why the property isn't rented - well who knows. We are in an area where there is perhaps a glut of student accommodation. The flat was in a very decent condition - we are responsible landlords.
Just to maybe soften the vitriol that's been evident in this thread I will explain a bit more. My husband had to move to part time working a few years ago for health reasons. To replace his income I have worked more hours and we also bought a buy to let property - not to make us rich evil landlords - but to replace his lost earnings.
Everything was fine for the first two years - was let easily - but since September the market is dead. It
Might make many angry that we own two properties but whatever we are paying nearly £450 per month for council services and I don't think this is right when many pay nothing.
Would love to know how many of you who are shouting me down are receiving subsidies for your council tax.

Let me call you a waaaaambulance. Life is so unfair. Diddums. So sell the place if you don't like it.

'Would love to know how many of you who are shouting me down are receiving subsidies for your council tax'

Naturally, anyone who disagrees with you is on benefits .

Op Now is about the time students are looking for their next years accommodation, and it sounds as though you maybe missed the 'window' last year.Are you with a letting agent? They should be able to give advice on what you need to do to get it rented out.
Students are more particular nowadays than they were back in out day.You need the place to be freshly painted.The carpets to be freshly cleaned and a clean non-shabby kitchen and bathroom.
If you could post a link we might be able to help you out.

Well, given that you said upthread that you were intending to lower the price to attract tenants, I think it's fair to assume that the property isn't rented because it was initially overpriced.

If there is a 'glut' of student accommodation in your area I take it there is a corresponding 'glut' of students? Who rent properties which were better priced?

I cannot see how you can call your decision to overprice your property in a saturated market 'unfair'.

I couldn't care less if you own 2, 3, or 4 properties. You put yourself in the situation of having an untenanted flat, hence being liable for full council tax.

This might be a bit personal, but if your BTL was intended to raise funds to cover your dh's loss of earnings (sorry about his health problems) then why didn't you lower the rent as soon as it became obvious that no-one was interested?

Don't need to answer the last bit - it's just that your latter information doesn't add anything to your case (other than a last ditch attempt to convince yourself that YANBU, although you so are).

No hum expat

Presumably the police would come if it was broken into, fire service if on fire, pavements are looked after etc so yes you pay council tax. Yabu

You're not paying for the services on the empty property, you're paying for consuming a scarce resource - the housing - empty houses are bad for the council. You made a mistake with your new business, and not a particularly expensive mistake compared to most people who start a new business.

You claim the rules changes since you bought it, but it was May 2012 when the law was being discussed, even if the council didn't do it until this year, so the information was hardly unavailable to a clueful investor.

But even if you were, it was surely one of the risks of being in the business anyone could of foreseen - It was recommended in a 2003 report (more for 2nd homes in rural locations for) - there are better businesses to be in pick one.

Wow people are being a tad unfair saying you shouldn't rent out a property! We don't know OP's situation. I unfortunately brought at the peak in 2007 just before the crash, then was unable to sell (had to move cities for work) as no-one was buying so had to rent it out, at a loss. I am now trying to sell again and am paying two council taxes, one for that property and one for the one I rent to live in. And it is hard to pay both!! I have only ever lost money and I would love somebody to buy my property even though it will leave me in debt

I get no subsidies FYI but don't begrudge those who do. I feel glad dh and I are not in that position.

Unfortunately, the government changed the goalposts after you bought the property as a business investment. And of course they didn't take into account the effect of the recession on the market. Certain policies that introduce punitive tax rates look good at times of a buoyant market, but as soon as the market drops, the effect can be very harmful.

There should be a discount for properties which are empty but the owners are actively seeking tenants or doing renovations. That would be fairer.

Thank you Chandler for getting it

There are over 500,000 empty homes in the UK

enough to give a secure roof to every housing waiting list family in the country
which would result in massive savings in the Council cost of housing benefit.

IMHO every house with less than one resident who has a UK NI number should pay 8quadruple* council tax.
You want to avoid it, get a lodger.

And don't get me started on second homes - of which there nearly 2 million
result in lots of rural councils going broke trying to house families while all the naice houses sit empty.

googlenut Why? The financial incentive to get the tenants in quickly, or finish the renovations quickly are good for the community - there's no public good to be produced by giving that discount, just the private good, and it is not the rest of societies job to help.

It also creates an administrative cost burden on everyone.

This tax change was mooted for well over 10 years, it should not have been a shock.