To object to paying two lots of council tax

[googlenut]

We pay really high rates on our own property. We have a rental property - a small flat- which we have been unable to rent. We have just been faced with a £650 council tax bill. If we had students in it the flat would be exempt, if we had one person in it we would get 25% discount but instead we have to pay the full amount when it is empty. I just can't see the fairness of this - but willing to listen if someone can explain the justice of it.

Unfortunately, it can be financially disastrous to take the "wrong" tenant, as in one without references, or who gives a bad feeling - a really bad tenant can wreck a property and cause tens of thousands of pounds worth of damage That's the reality of the situation, not some personal jealousy of someone who has managed to buy two properties.

For many ordinary people in this country, as opposed to those who inherit or run big businesses, buying buy-to-let is just about the only way they will ever manage to give themselves a chance of just a little bit of a financial boost in a life full of paying tax on just about every manoeuvre they make.

TheChandler There are a lot more reliable and easier businesses than BTL, as you say the risks from the wrong tenant can be huge, that hardly makes it a safe bet for someone who's ordinary and risking a lot of their own money.

But if you prove you are seeking tenants and renovating there is no evidence that you are holding stock back - the idea is ludicrous that a landlord would want to stop tenants in their flats. But sometimes these things happen.

When I was a graduate student, and so exempt from council tax, my newly graduated, unemployed, and therefore exempt from council tax, sister came down to the big city to look for a job.

Turns out if you are unemployed, but living with a relative, that relative is liable for your ct. Even if you are both separately exempt.

We had to pay sodding council tax for six months until she found a job.

I guess I'm one who's has given you vitriol but I don't recieve any subsidies, so thanks for the assumption.

I did point out that universities have recently been building there own accomodation as part of the wider monetisation of further education, if you run a business you need to be aware of the variables which can effect your business.

Has your local uni been doing this, is there a large glut of new build flats sprung up?

Many people are thinking twice about going to uni now with the introduction of fees, did you consider this?

Did you know that it's up to the local council to impose these rules and for those that have the reasoning is partly down to people buying a second home and killing the local area, as pp have said services still need to be paid.

If your on interest only mortgage and hoping that house price rises will give you a nice profit without accepting that there are costs involved with being a landlord then YABU

Also if the reason you can't rent out your property comes down to 'who knows' shows your nievity

Starting a business has a risk and overheads, if you don't understand these it doesn't make it unfair.

Only on mumsnet do you see this shitty attitudes to landlords. If they all sold their BTL houses, where would the people who only want to rent rather than buy live?

And if a tenant trashes your flat you can't move someone in the week after they leave. You have to spend time being a GOOD landlord and putting it right and therefore occurring months of council tax payments.

I would disagree; bricks and mortar have been a far more reliable investment than stocks and shares in this country over the years. And far easier to understand for the average person.

I take it the OP purchased the property with income she and her DH have already been taxed on, and pay tax on the rental income when they get it?

Save your vitriol for those who inherit and gain without their own hard work...

I also don't get the hatred of second home owners. Socialist Scandinavia is pretty much built on the notion of the second home. Communist Russia was too - even if the country dacha might have been just a log cabin. The idea of wanting to get away from the stresses and strains of city life to a rural property that is obviously in a cheaper area (because there are less jobs there) is pretty standard in even the most socialist/communist of societies.

googlenut I'm afraid there are lots of situations when landlords want to keep properties empty for their own gain, and "seeking tenants" is of course way too easy to just be un provable by requiring ludicrous requirements on the tenant.

Does your council not let you lease it to them? Most do.

A lot of councils have tightened up on this. It's to stop people holding on to empty properties. And I think they have got a point. If you can't rent it out you should consider selling.

I actually think there has been a lot of tampering with the market by those in government/local government who may stand to gain, without any proper calculation of the market effects.

In other words, I think those companies which build student accommodation find it easier to get planning permission, they fund the construction companies which build the accommodation, often for prices that don't bear that much relation to market reality. Its a mysterious system, but its an artificially created market, and its something local government is doing more and more.

I often wonder who staffs these housing associations and construction companies, and what contacts they have to those in local government...

But I agree; its very convenient for the jobs for the boys bunch if people get wound up about "evil landlords taking homes away from the poor". Very, very convenient for them indeed.

Labrador
Only on mumsnet do you see this shitty attitudes to landlords. If they all sold their BTL houses, where would the people who only want to rent rather than buy live?
FFS which financial planet do you live on?

Without BTL tax breaks, house prices would drop 25-30%
So the people who live in the houses could afford to buy them.

The UK is one of the very, very few OECD countries without a land tax
hence the offensive use of offshore LLP ownership of UK property.

Bring in USA style 5% per year (of property value) land taxes and supply and demand in the UK would start to balance

there is no shortage of houses
just a shortage of available / affordable houses

drive through Padstow on a Tuesday evening in January to see the offensive nature of second homes - its dark

Viviennemary A lot of councils have tightened up on this. It's to stop people holding on to empty properties. And I think they have got a point. If you can't rent it out you should consider selling.

Stamp duty is going up/changing as well. No-one knows how that will affect the market (because proper economic market analysis hasn't been carried out prior to the change) or whether it will result in those above the new thresholds facing the prospect of negative equity.

Talkinpeace Bring in USA style 5% per year (of property value) land taxes and supply and demand in the UK would start to balance

I would actually have no objections to this if US income tax rates were also introduced.

I am
Genuinely mystified - why would
Landlords want to hold on to empty properties - can someone explain?

I am genuinely mystified why a ll would overprice a flat, then complain about paying full council tax on an empty property googlenut, which issue you are continually avoiding to address.

You are responsible for your flat being untenanted - you made this clear when you said that intend to lower the price to attract tenants.

theChandler : total tax rates in the US (including healthcare) are almost identical to the UK - be careful what you wish for.

googlenut
I am Genuinely mystified - why would Landlords want to hold on to empty properties - can someone explain?
Easy.
They are not UK taxpayers. They but the property with undeclared offshore money (HSBC Switzerland) through an LLP and hold it for a few years to sell at a tax fre capital gain.
If they were mad enough to put a tenant in there, then they would have to deal withall of teh UK authorities - tac, counil, DWP
so its cheaper to keep the places empty for years
Bishops Avenue 20 houses empty for over 30 years
Mayfair a couple of 30 bedroom mansions empty for over 40 years

and lets not even start on landbanking by developers

OP - because some empty properly are 'earning' far more per year than their thick-as-pig-shit landlords ever could.

Well if that's the reason for this council tax policy then it is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut surely!

I wouldn't have thought so now outside of London

Why don't you sell up Googlenut? It would save you the cost of the council tax and the property is obviously not providing the income you and your DH require?

Well it's annoyed you hasn't it?

TalkInPeace
My point is that not everyone WANTS to buy a house - many WANT to rent. If you are living in an area temporarily for work or to care for family etc there is no sense in buying.

And my financial planet includes being an 'accidental' landlord because I bought in 2007 when property prices and mortgage rates were at their peak and fixing for as long as possible because I was at the top of my budget to buy a starter home. Then everything crashed and I met DP, moved in with him but couldn't afford to sell my house due to beg eq. I was topping up the rent by 30% to meet mortgage payments and still don't make any profit now - I'd love to sell the bloody thing but it's still not worth what I paid for it.

So it pisses me off to see landlords getting such a hard time and people getting their 'tiny violins' out and saying we should hang our heads in shame. Some of us are really bloody stuck, all because we tried to do the sensible thing - buy before we were priced out of the market to secure a roof over our heads.

We probably will sell up