To be taken aback by what friend said

[honeycoco]

My friend is gay and is hoping to start a family. Her wife is a bit too old to carry a child and so friend will be the biological mum: however, she really, really doesn't want to be pregnant.

I asked if they'd thought about adoption and she said 'oh NO definitely not, we don't want someone else's child, we want ours!"

AIBU to think this wasn't very nice?

It doesn't look like anyone interpreted it that way, you do seem determined to see messages that aren't there. Bit like with your friend.
Are you always so hard on your friends?

Did you read the same thread as me? On the first page alone I can read a few posts which are essentially saying 'why don't you adopt if you are that bothered' - this is not the issue. The issue is adoption isn't bringing up someone else's child and referring to adopted children as not your own is insulting.

To be honest countess I think given the statement my friend made and given that one of my DCs is adopted - I think I was very placid!

At any rate, I take on board your point MrsD - I suppose I was a little reluctant for the thread to be about smoothing my ruffled feathers when despite the above post stating to the contrary, my feathers are distinctly smooth!

I couldn't agree more about 'just adopt' being unbelievably irritating which is why I included the information I did - about a same sex couple but neither could/wished to experience pregnancy - that was the only reason I mentioned that!

As a general point, I have become fairly immune to comments about same sex couples, adoption and IVF and would certainly never tell anybody they should do anything.

By the same token, I do feel that while adoption isn't for everybody, there is a world of difference between saying 'it isn't for me' and the inherent undertone in 'raising someone else's child' - adopter or not, I felt that statement was a step beyond 'honesty' and wandered into territory that was potentially a little offensive.

(That's a little, countess - I didn't chuck my tea over her, or call her a horrible name, or storm out )

I love my stepson as much as my own children and have only known him since he was 13 (he's 24 now) they are really all the same to me (not literally the same stepson is gay, son is v male and dd has mental health issues) but in terms of having a place in my heart - well I would be heartbroken without any of them!

I have to ask though: has anyone ever NOT thought about adopting until a friend said "why don't you adopt?". And then they were like "what's adoption? Never heard of it! Thanks for letting me know"... obviously not.

I mean, I feel like it's sort of like asking someone have they thought about losing weight? An adult woman who has a phobia of pregnancy knows what adoption is and is going to bring up adoption if she wants to talk about it. The fact that you have adopted a child I think puts even more pressure on her to react favorably. I feel in that moment, you made this about you.

It is honestly rude to bring up adoption in response to someone talking about their fertility issues. Nobody says "well don't have kids then. Lots of people are happy with childlessness" even though that's true as well. Yet well meaning people are always suggesting adoption.

Then to come to mumsnet to talk shit about her at her lowest point...

If my friend was discussing with me how she didn't want to get pregnant and I had adopted I might in fact ask her if she had considered adoption. I might broach it rather tentatively because I have had my fill of people suggesting you "just" adopt. In reality when its a comment from an adopter it tend to be a little more pragmatic and accepting of the pros and cons.

Surely the only person there is any point having a conversation about adoption and whether its for you is with an adopter And an adopter raising it is generally more along the lines of "because you know I've done it and can discuss the real issues with you if you're interested".

And IIRC she wasn't discussing fertility issues. OP has mentioned no fertility issues it was a conversation about having a family when you don't want to be pregnant.

to talk shit about her - what shit?!... "AIBU to think this wasn't very nice?"

Yanbu unreasonable OP and seem very sensible and lovely.
Off topic but if your friend is afraid of giving birth maybe she can get some counseling to address those fears and also think about an elective cesarean. It's an irrational reason for not getting pregnant. Most women are scared of giving birth (well I was).

Kew having a phobia of pregnancy will make it difficult to have a baby. If it's a real phobia, I would class it in the same level of sensitivity as a fertility issue.

if I decided I was interested in adoption, I would ask a friend who had adopted. If I had fertility issues, the last person I would want to bring up adoption is a friend who has adopted. People are always defensive about their choices and I want the unvarnished truth, not post hoc rationalization.

Again, would you suggest childlessness? Would you say "well don't have kids!". If you would, then fine, raise adoption, If not, then at least for me, If someone is talking about how to have a baby, bringing up adoption is rude!

Yes actually with a friend close enough to be discussing how to have a family I would have (and have had) a conversation about all the options. Including remaining childless, which two friends indeed did.

I am intimately acquainted with fertility problems and have had more than a few discussions with friends going through the same experiences as I once did.

It never once occurred to me that I should skirt around the possibility of adoption not did they think I was going to give some kind of rosy picture of adoption as the panacea for all fertility ills.

Of course its hugely insensitive to be suggesting adoption with someone who is in the throes of fertility treatment. I know how it feels I have been there. But I have had honest conversation with women trying to decide what to do next and I know of at least one child that exists in the world via donor embryo because of the conversation I had.

I understand that OP's friend might had felt offended by her talking about it, I understand that she might have felt OP was biased and therefore wouldn't give advice she wanted to hear. But IME a conversation between two women have have travelled a similar road (or who are contemplating travelling the same road) is markedly different in tone and practicality than well meaning bystanders doing the (tilt head) "why don't you just adopt"

Anyway I do really think its all a bit of a storm in a teacup (this thread not infertility, which was a massive storm in the channel for me) - OP said she thought it wasn;t a very nice thing to say and it wasn't but yes maybe her friend objected to her raising it. Or maybe her friend is just a bit insensitive.

Kew you sound like a generous and caring friend. But I guess people are different and I must fall closer to the OP's friend because honestly, her "advice" seems premature and somewhat unwanted.

Do you mind if I probe a little deeper? You said that you have had conversations with friends suggesting that they remain childless. Can I ask a little bit more about those conversations? Because I'm just trying to imagine someone telling me that they might struggle with a pregnancy (for phobia or other reasons) and my response being "why not just have no children?". It seems like an incredibly sensitive topic that would only probably be appropriate between very close friends and would still be quite tense and in many cases overstepping. It seems pretty rare in my experience. But you say that you've had this conversation a lot...

And if the OP is close enough to have this deep and fraught conversation with her friend, why aren't they close enough for her to go back and explain that she was hurt by the statement?

Perhaps she felt you were close enough to be that honest with? I phrase things more bluntly with people I consider close friends and more diplomatically with acquaintances.

I felt a bit sad reading the op. I am adopted, and so grateful to be so.

But then I read MrsD's post and yes, I was just taking it personally. Not everyone has to want or have to adopt.

My parents were the parents I needed because they truly wanted me.

And Balls you sound lovely

Nicely passively aggressively misquoted there.

• I have had quite a few conversations about infertility (I am infertile for the avoidance of doubt or you misconstruing what I say). When you have more than one friend going through similar things to you, you do tend to end up discussing it because you are in a small band who understand.

• I have specifically had conversations with friends struggling with fertility some years after me where we have openly acknowledged that of course one option is to remain child-free and I have two friends who decided to do this one after a miscarriage and one after failed IVF. I didn't "suggest" they remain childless but yes I did talk about it as it was an option I considered myself. I didn't say I'd had the conversation about remaining child free "a lot" I said I'd had "more than a few" conversations about fertility problems, but don't let what I actually said get in the way.

• as the OP describes herself as "taken aback" rather than hurt by the statement I doubt she wants to go back to her friend and make an issue of it but she'll have to answer that one. Personally if any one of my friends close or not described my son as someone elses I would correct them partly because its upsetting for him to hear his relationship with me minimised in that way and if people arent; corrected, they can and do start saying this kind of thing in front of the children.

So personally I would have handled it differently - but if you're trying to imply that I haven't had these kind of conversations and that I'm making them up to justify the rather mild fall out between two anonymous women on the internet then you're mistaken. Though I would much prefer that you were right and I had made up the scenarios in my head. It would have been an easier past 15 years for both me and a handful of other women I know.

Maybe we just have had very different experiences. You outlined a situation in which your friends struggling with fertility came to you because you had struggled with yours and as part of long conversations, not having children was mentioned?

So... it actually doesn't sound like YOU were actually the one who brought up remaining childless in those conversations. My post stated that I thought that no one who brought up adoption in this context would bring up childlessness. I don't think you've contradicted that tbh.

But to fair, can the OP jump back in and state if any of the factors in your conversations hold for her? Maybe her friend reached out to her because of her experience with adoption? Or because the OP has any experience of a phobia of pregnancy or infertility issues? Of course, it doesn't sound like her friend wanted to go down that road. I mean, she shot it down pretty quickly. But maybe it was part of a really long conversation in which the OP's friend begged the OP to opine on the correct way for her to obtain the ideal family and the OP selflessly jumped in, only to be cruelly rebuffed. In that case, I agree - OP: YANBU! Time for NC!

I can't, in all honesty, state it was a meaningful conversation more friend shuddering about giving birth. I said it wasn't quite as bad as all that but she was pretty decided that it wasn't going to happen. She added that 'it's a shame as we would like kids, but ...'

So there's the context.

Anyway, not a massive thing, except as Kew says, there are days where you contend with several small things and it can be frustrating.

People are allowed to feel as they like regarding adoption but I'd never say what your friend said to you - someone who has adopted.

I think people should think carefully about the way they say things - it is offensive and insensitive to act slightly appalled at the very notion of having a child that 'isn't yours' (

Well, I guess the point of AIBU is to get different people's perspectives. We're clearly never going to agree but hopefully I put forward at least what in my opinion might have been what was in your friend's head. I can imagine being irritated with what I felt was an insensitive comment and lashing out a bit like your friend may have done.

(thatsucks your comment is pretty silly. phobias are real and picking an older partner has nothing to do with being an entitled PITA. Again, there is nothing wrong with not wanting to adopt a child. It doesn't make you a bad or entitled person. Even the OP has acknowledged that.)