"Oh I'm lucky that I don't need to work, financially"

[TerraNovice]

I'm going back to work next month and while chatting with other mums about it I've come across the above phrase a few times. Perhaps IBU but it sounds insufferably smug to be - so they married guys with money, so what? There's nothing wrong with saying you're a SAHM so why add the caveat that you've got a rich husband?

We wanted for me to be a SAHM for DCs' early years so we saved like mad for a few years to make it happen.

I did tutor at night when they were small then went back to teaching part time when youngest started nursery.

You do what you think is best for your family and everyone thinks differently.

Yeah, but there are plenty of us who don't have Tybalts who also don't have choice. I live in Ireland. There's no childcare subsidised here, it's the second most expensive in Europe, very underregulated and a lot of it is poor quality (there have been several exposés and I know of three people, first hand, whose children have been assaulted and needed to be removed from care). Much childcare is done by grandparents and if you don't have access to that, you may be scuppered. House and rental prices are witheringly expensive in the Dublin area, parking costs are astronomical in the capital and yet there's very little reliable public transport to circumvent this, there's a massive rental shortage too. We moved here after our third was born, we have no social support system or friends who can cover shifts or whatever... we live over an hour and twenty minutes from the capital, the only work we can get is in the capital and there's literally no childcare solutions to this conundrum. Dh has repeatedly asked for flexible working, parental leave etc etc, it's not forthcoming. I haven't been able to get a job that would pay for childcare, despite being in a shortage profession (that there's an embargo on recruitment for). The kids get out of school at 1.30pm, and are in school 185 days and out 184 days. There is no wraparound care.

I'm actually "lucky" because we managed to get a rental and we can get by on dh's wage for now, though I am working some ad hoc shifts on Saturdays, some Sundays and some evenings to get by, but it's unpredictable and often there's nothing (zero hours contract). I'm not working class though, so at least the money that comes in for doing this makes an appreciable difference to our quality of life and will hopefully lead to a situation we can get out of this.

There are massive feminist issues here in Ireland - no abortion, no rights to informed consent in pregnancy etc.... but the assumption that everyone has someone to mind their kids at home is very real, much more so than in the UK (where I lived until my eldest was school aged). I would love to have access to the cosy three day a week flexible working routine that I would have had in the UK, it just doesn't exist here in the same way ....

BUT

What plagues me, though I try not to let it do so, is the idea that what I do all day is worthless. I work hard to find pride in it, to value it.. I enjoy some of the time with the kids, I really do, but the endless chores - what's actually involved in keeping a house clean when there are people in it, when you're not at work - and the isolation can feel extreme.

It pisses me off other women judge, it really does. We made this decision to move back to Ireland because our relatives were old and unwell and it was a values based decision, but it is tough going and I have to fight my mind on a daily basis to find the joy in it. Some days it works, others it doesn't. Mostly I avoid discussions like this, where people wax on about how they are working for the sisterhood and to give their kids good role models. Fuck that.

These people sound nasty and smug. I tell people the opposite - with 2 kids under 5 and a third on the way my salary would not pay for childcare fees! Though I do work very very part time from home using family as free childcare!!

Ubik Tbh any mention of feminism is redundant until women have real choice.

Well exactly. Feminism is about a lot more than the right to talk about a SAHM being a real job. Obviously to some that's very controversial...

Mostly I avoid discussions like this, where people wax on about how they are working for the sisterhood and to give their kids good role models. Fuck that.

I think people try to look at the positives in every situation . So 'good role models' for me as a working mother, that's a positive , weighed against 'fish fingers yet again for tea and the house is a mess.'

Look the whole debate is just a hall of mirrors and there is no way out. I sincerely believe affordable childcare for working and at home parents would substantially improve many peoples lives.

Ireland sounds especially rubbish

I feel very lucky to be a single parent.

I get to decide how I spend the money I earn. I make all my own decisions about everything including dd. I don't have to answer to anyone. I don't have to clean up after anyone. I get a double bed to myself. I own my own home. I never have arguments or have to put up with a horrible atmosphere. I like my job.

I am feeling a tiny bit smug right now.

Right, it made me sigh but maybe SPECIFICALLY loo cleaning wasn't the best example to try to get across the main point I was trying to make. And really this is aimed only at those who think sahp isn't or shouldn't be as equally valid an option as WOH is.

When someone decides (or is forced, whatever the situation) to WOH they generally put a lot of thought into who is going to care for their children when they are otherwise engaged. Whatever the options are, each individual family generally weighs them and picks the best for their kids.

If looking after kids is so easy and unskilled to be considered worthless slave labour WHY does everyone put such care into choosing who will do it if they themself isn't going to/can't? Why is being a SAHM crappy non-choice slave labour but being a childminder/nanny presumably a perfectly respectable lifestyle choice and a position of enough responsibility that significant care goes into choosing who will fill it?

And if WOHP are perfectly okay to look around and think "that is the best option for my family" (which I agree they certainly are) why aren't SAHP okay to do the same and conclude their chosen option is also best for their own family?

There's a huge difference between paid childcare and a parent. As a parent, you just give birth. There are no requirements for skills, education etc. Unless you neglect or harm a child, nobody intervenes.

Formal childcare is different. The people are strangers so there needs to be a trusting relationship. Some want the forest type setting, others want a more formal setting with early teaching elements. That's why people spend time choosing. No different to parents choosing the school for their child.

Yes snow white, my question (prompted by those ipthread who think being a sahp is worthless and slavery and harmful to the kids) is why is being a SAHP of one's own kids seen as so much less valid than being paid to care for someone else's?

IME people view being a SAHM as being on a par with sainthood. People often comment on how much work it must be running my home, how lovely my home is, how lovely my chikdren are and what a great job I am doing with them. In reality I do a few hours housework and then spend my time reading, meeting friends, playing with the children or pottering about.

Ssshhhhhh philoslothy

I've just managed to convince everyone that I am indeed a saint, the wonderful children and relaxing home are all down to me

Don't blow if for me!!! What happened to solidarity!!!!!

I think that might reflect your income, Philoslothy, and I say this with absolutely no disrespect to you. Here it's expected, but it's definitely not respected or seen as anything other than an opt-out of "real work", even when logistics mean you can't physically manage to work. Most people know that you didn't make the choice, and they feel sorry for you, not that you're lucky. Especially if, like us, you don't even own your own home, as inevitably this means you will end up dying with nothing.

I find it intolerably dull some days. It's like groundhog day, picking up the same few items over and over and over, wiping down the same old surfaces, loading and unloading barrels of laundry. I often feel like I fell off the planet.

And yes, it's different to paid childcare. There's a lot less emotional distance or support in terms of skills, knowledge, regulation. Mainly, it's just me, my thoughts and my kids, picking stuff up, putting it down and picking it up again, with a bit of wiping and screaming thrown in for good measure. If this is what sainthood feels like, make me a sinner anyday! (Though in reality I'm actually quite grateful for everything we do have - health, money, options that other people in other parts of the world don't have even if it's not quite what I expected of adulthood). On the other hand, I do think some of it has value over and above what a childcarer can reasonably offer e.g. when I zone out or find myself not listening, not responding, not seeing the kids as people, I have a very good incentive to come back again and be present with them, and talk to them, see them as individuals with value. I think my kisses probably mean more to them, in all honesty. That's not to say if I could access reasonable childcare I wouldn't trade some of this in a heartbeat. That makes me feel guilty sometimes... but then again, I've a lot of time to think about it.

I think you are probably right.

There are also a variety of SAHM all with different motivations. I am a SAHM partly because I can't work part time, partly bevause I like being at home and I also want to do as little as possible.

I have friends who put much more into being a SAHM than me.

I have friends who are teachers who are SAHM who perhaps a bit like me - want to jump off the gravy train for a while but it is only a temporary thing.

Others will do it because there is no financial gain in working and it happily falls in line with what they want to do anyway. For others it was not a positive choice and there will be a myriad of other experiences.

My mother could have called herself a SAHM because she was at home but that was not a parenting choice - she never worked either in the home or out of it. In fact she only left the house to get drink, steal or go to prison. However she waxes lyrical to me about how I owe her because she chose to stay at home and care for me.

Of course- I practice AP- so putting a LO into day care was not an option.

Weirdly enough, in my experience, I get a lot more respect from other people as a sahm than I did when I worked part time in a low status job. But not as much as when I worked full time in a job that was viewed as 'a good job'. (Although that was an illusion, because it was a poorly paid crap job, but the name of the company made it sound like a desirable job to other people) .

Presumably not working at all is seen as some sort of positive choice (not on MN though ) and the 'good' job is seen as having achieved something. Whereas the low status part time job is viewed as 'must be thick or you'd have a better job'.

I used to get shit loads of compliments as a teacher, I was on proper Mother Teresa territory there. I kept it to myself that I was in it for the holidays and the chance to be home by 4pm.

I think that some interesting points have been made on this thread, particularly by duplodon

What buddhist said

I chose to be a SAHP with my first child, but we have had to be very careful and count every penny. We are by no means well off. Now I'm expecting twins, the idea of me going back to work before they're all at least school age is laughable as childcare would be astronomical. So for a lot of families, I imagine having one parent stay home is actually based on finances being tight rather than vice versa.

I think how people say it can make a difference. My DH earns megabucks so I don't have to work because we're loaded. I couldn't imagine farming out my children to nurseries or childminders. What's the point of having children.

Or equally as bad. I must work to keep my brain functioning. Couldn't imagine being at home doing housework and dealing with babies all day. Sooooooooo boring. How anyone could live like this beats me.

So basically everyone is saying that no matter what we do some fucker out there has something negative to say about it.

I just think the roles women have, no matter what that role is, are scrutinised and found wanting purely because she's a woman. WOHM don't love their kids and farm them out SAHM are unemployable lazy thick leeches. If you're really good at your job you're probably a crap parent and if your kids have grown up into paragons of virtue it's to be remembered that they probably would have anyway.

We are all fucked basically. Can't please everyone, got to please yourself.