"Oh I'm lucky that I don't need to work, financially"

[TerraNovice]

I'm going back to work next month and while chatting with other mums about it I've come across the above phrase a few times. Perhaps IBU but it sounds insufferably smug to be - so they married guys with money, so what? There's nothing wrong with saying you're a SAHM so why add the caveat that you've got a rich husband?

But we are not talking about the glorification of domestic work, we are talking about the caring and raising of the next generation- which in my mind is crucial work.

I chose not to use childcare because I don't want to entrust that to anyone else in the early formative years.

I really don't get the reference to black people... children need to be fed, clothed, cleaned, kissed when they fall, talked to.. it's an essential human need and all the scientific and psychological evidence says that if it's not done consistently well, there can be significant consequences. This really has nothing to do with treating people badly by virtue of their colour.

As for the supposed "glorification" of domestic work, if it was truly "glorified", men would be queueing up to do it. Oh wait, they're not? What does that tell you?

I think we have to be careful that we're not doing that blue.

Domestic work is not especially difficult or skilled. Women ( and black people) have ended up doing it because they were given little other choice.

All the 'respect' in the world won't make that not so. We need to be very careful that it's not just a sop to keep the status quo.

do it because they want all the things that come along with having 2 salaries (holidays, second car, new clothes etc)

I read this all the time on mumsnet. For most of the population having two salaries means none of those things.
I enjoy my work and DP enjoys his but due to recession, housing costs and rises in the cost of living we have a frugal lifestyle. So we go camping, we run a car which is 15 years old, my children wear second hand clothes and hand me downs.

The only thing I spend money on is work wardrobe/hair etc because I have to look 'corporate.'

I don't see glorification of domestic work.

I do see child rearing as undervalued.

I raise my children because it is my responsibility to do so.

I don't seek recognition for it, any more this I seek recognition for not commiting crime, paying my taxes, keeping myself healthy and all the other responsibilities I have.

We all rear our children

Yes but in different ways.

Domestic work is not especially skilled or difficult. This doesn't mean it's:

• unimportant
• has no consequences for society
• not worthwhile

The current demand that what a person does all day needs to be difficult and skilled in order to be deemed worthwhile really does the human race no favours.

There are a great many people who do not do difficult or skilled work all day, it doesn't mean they are living some sort of half-life. We are animals whether we like it or not. To flourish and thrive, human beings need basic care, to live in clean shelter, to seek comfort when we are in pain from people we are secure with, to eat food at regular intervals which ideally has been prepared from fresh ingredients that doesn't harm our bodies, to develop habits of hygiene and exercise. These are important activities on which the ability to do all this Terribly Important Difficult Skilled Work rests.

Yet many, many people are not doing them to the detriment of their mental and physical wellbeing and yet still we say that what's most important in life is this Terribly Important Difficult Skilled Work.

I don't say that women need to be the ones to do domestic work, which might be your misconception. I'm saying we need to stop pretending it is a minor part of being human that it needs to be done, and done well, for people to live a good life. So you can afford to have high quality cradle to grave care where you feel nurtured, encouraged, supported and engaged with and never have to lift a finger to keep your shelter, clothing and bedding clean and provide you and your kin with good quality food? You're oppressing someone then, aren't you? By extension, I would say that if you say that domestic work is unimportant, you are acting oppressively. You don't need to want to do it, but unless you're terribly self-important, you really should be able to value it.

"Oh I'm lucky that I don't need to work, financially"

I don't really agree with this anyway. There is an argument that if your spouse earns a good salary then maybe you should stay out of the job market and leave the jobs for those who really need them.

But on the other hand, I don't think anyone should rely on someone else if they don't need to. I've said this before but people can lose their jobs/become ill/run off with a colleague etc etc. And relying on the State is unwise especially if we get another Tory government which will cut benefits further. And one of the reasons that women are abused by their partners is because too often the partners hold the purse-strings. The times I hear women saying their husbands won't let them buy something. What century do we live in again?

If your circumstances allow, and you can possibly work, even a few hours a week, I would always work. You don't know what's around the corner.

Jilly in your vision of how the world should be, who actually does look after children? And the elderly? And the disabled? Because caring work, paid or unpaid, appears beneath contempt based on your post. In your ideal world, who actually does it?

So blue are you saying some ways need more recognition than others?

As an aside, I think 'housekeeping' is much more skilled than people will ever give credit for. Or at least doing it well is. There are surprisingly huge numbers of people who struggle with grocery shopping, paying bills on time, organising their paperwork, keeping on top of their laundry, cleaning and tidying. I'm not saying that it's a superskilled job and we should have qualifications in running a house but it's a more challenging job than some of the office based jobs that I have done for money. Of course, working parents have to do both.

word- no I am not saying that.

I don't think working full time means that you are a bad parent or are damaging your children.

duplo domestic work is just something we all do.

It's part and parcel of being human and has to be done whether we work or whether we have children.

The fact that women get lumbered with most of it won't change because those women demand respect for it.

ubik- no one has suggested that.

The only suggestion that kids are being damaged are the ones who stay home with a SAHM.

word - unfortunately SAHMs with small kids usually have more housework than full time working Mums. It is a messy business!!

No, TWF, domestic work is not something we all do. The statistics are clear that a lot of men don't do an awful lot of it, regardless of their living arrangement. Mostly, people scrape by during their child-free years without this being problematic, but it causes a lot of additional stress to many women once children come along. Psychology shows that men in marriages are happier than women, and this is one of the reasons.

Domestic work being seen as unimportant, unskilled, lesser and not difficult contributes to this sort of status quo. It also has historically contributed to the disparity in wages between, say, plasterers and childcare workers as plastering is "skilled" and an "art" but caring for children is viewed as "unskilled" and something for girls with no brains (though to be fair, it is becoming more and more professionalised by the minute, so that we have the bizarre situation that caring work is important if it has a set of rules and educational hoops to jump through attached to it, but is totally unimportant, unskilled etc if not - which begs the question, what is it that these early years professionals are learning to DO that women didn't do through the ages?).

Equality will exist when men and women both view caring for children and the home they live in as vitally important to wellbeing and flourishing for all members, and both can work in and out of the home with no subsequent loss of career progression or status in society. That's not the case at the moment, as domestic work is absolutely seen as trivial, unimportant and unworthy by many.

Well said duplodon.

In my experience, my full time work has forced DP to take on a greater share of the housework. I think we are truly 50/50 split on housework - because we have to be.

He has to make concessions in his work, he has to say to clients 'sorry I have to pick my daughters up from school now or take them to dr or dentist. I think this is good for furthering equality - the more men who do this, the easier it becomes for women too.

But yes I was at home with my children for five years and it was fine. But staying at home doesn't necessarily mean you are a skilled parent. You could just spend all day on mumsnet while ignoring the kids.

I think a very clear distinction needs to be made between raising children (which we all do, WOH or SAH) and domestic chores. Also, Raising children is not something we entrust to anyone else; those of us who use/ have used various forms of childcare are simply entrusting certain aspects of day to day care. Raising children is far more than the sum of childcare tasks. And raising children IS a glorious thing to do.

Domestic work on the other hand, is often quite dull and repetitive. Of course, decorating a room, cooking a special dinner etc are enjoyable, but the day to day washing socks , hoovering and so on is boring, not difficult and certainly not worthy of any special recognition.

So it's important that a clear distinction is made between bringing up our children and housework.

Finally, it's been said before- but what is worthy of recognition (if anything) is raising well adjusted Young people with good values. And that is done (or not done) by WOHP and SAHP

I find it offensive that someone up thread actually compared sahms to the plight of oppressed black people in days gone by.
Obviously now they'll insist that it wasn't analogous, it was something else which gets them off the hook. What tosh.
Personally I feel more oppressed when I'm held to ransom by a stroppy boss who wants reports and spreadsheets sorted out by a certain time on a certain day.
Is interesting that it's posters on high 6 figure (if not 7) salaries like Jilly and Word who want to dictate what the rest of us do and want to tell us that what we're doing is wrong because on our teacher, accountant, nurse, office middle management salaries, we ought to press ahead and set an example for the sisterhood. Most of us do what's best for ourselves and what makes us happy. If we are indeed lucky enough to have the bloody choice. Some have no choice. And personally I think it's depressing that we have sleepwalked into a world where it's considered the norm to have 2 working parents earning money which they can hand over to a childminder to look after their offspring around the clock.
But please whatever you do, don't try and compare me to the status of a black slave from a hundred years ago.
Slavery and sahm'dom are incomparable.

has anyone said yet:
Wohps do everything sahps do and work too?
I'm waiting for that crap nugget of wisdom to surface