To think this is crazy <DV Trigger>

[RandomNPC]

What the hell is happening here?
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-who-throat-cut-brutal-5164409

itsnotjustaslap

It sounds like all the easy ways to enhance manipulation did have a huge impact in your case.

But it's good that it has assisted with your safety, have your children been able to get on a DA children's group yet? They can be hugely beneficial your intervention partnership or SW should be able to get a referral for you if they haven't already

The way I read it was that she is safe from him because he won control of her and the children via the courts and if she does not do as required (what he wanted) she will be at risk of prison and/or from her ex.

I can't see that as a result myself.

I also saw the case in the OP this morning and was really shocked.

Tbh it can be the lesser of two evils whilst certainly not ideal if she's safe she's safe.

Sometimes it can be better to sit back in safety and let the other party hugely fuck up often a little rope helps them to do so whilst minimising risk to actual people

But this is why people don't leave is because it's safer for them to stay.

I don't think that being safe as long as you follow the rules set by a dangerous person is real safety is it?

So if a man says if you leave I will kill you, and so you say OK I'll stay, that's not OK is it, really it isn't.

Safety planning when still in an abusive relationship and safety planning after are not the same thing at all.

Yes loads of women stay because they are terrified about the prospect of an abuser having unsupervised contact but most of the time that staying does not help them stay safe.

Its a unpleasant nasty catch 22, your at risk long term if you stay as are the children but you are significantly more at risk short term at the point of leaving or just after.

The system can hugely help as can the courts. But it's surprising just how much every day people being vocal about domestic abusers also being child abusers without exception can force the system to challenge abuse

Needs, there is a mumsnetter I am in touch with, who is going through something similar, she has a thread on here about it, but yes it is coming in their favour now, she has a fantastic SW who is finally listening and taking action, and slowly but slowly ex is being given enough rope to hang himself, and is fucking up the situation nicely. Contact has been suspended whilst SS investigates, and at the moment things are looking good for her and her ds.

If these letters are causing so much upset to the children, the surely the courts got to take action and revoke this order.

This is emotionally scaring the children. Surely the child rights comes before the parents.

Thanks aeroflotgirl and needsasockamnesty. I think the only thing that I can take from this is that I am safe. Unfortunately it has been at the expense of my freedom, - I cannot move anywhere else in the country as that would affect contact arrangements, I cannot leave the country with my child without his express permission and only then in the one week holiday that I get with my child each year. I have to sit back and watch while he generally fucks things up with my child (junk food and sweets for every meal, teeth decay as he doesn't bother with cleaning them, accidents (sometimes very serious), no input into education because he just wants to be fun dad, and the general drip drip that men are more important than women and that you need to take, take, take from everyone else to get what you want.

I suppose that it is still better than being back there as his partner, dreading the next onslought, the belittling, humiliation, and I live independantly, have my self respect and confidence back. But its a really unfair system and it impacts on women like me. It isn't right and it's not in the interests of a child. I have to abide by this order for the next 15 years or so and it is my yoke to bear.

It is also very hard because the view of acquaintances who know us and his family also believe (and the view that my child will also grow up to have) is that the abuse couldn't have been that bad as the courts wouldn't have supported him - which is wrong.

I want more people to be aware of this and for more people to take a stand. So often when people are considering leaving they are reassured that of course they will continue being the main carer, they will be free of his control. Its not like that anymore.

Of course I am better off having left - and I wouldn't want anyone reading this to be put off from doing so - but being forewarned is to be forearmed. I was very confident that having gone through this and having all the evidence a result like this would never happen. I was wrong.

Jesus wept

Why the hell is this not as well publicised as it should be?

What can we, as a community, do? Does anyone know if there are any ongoing campaigns, or petitions, or organisations that we can support? It just sounds like the entire system is totally fucked up, and abusers seem to be getting away with all sorts - at significant cost to the victims.

Could mnhq consider a campaign?

If anyone has any links or suggestions, would they mind posting? I don't feel as clued up on this as I should be.

My friend is going through exactly the same itsnotjustsleep, but her ex is sexually and emotionally abusing her ds. Finally SS are sitting up and listening, and her ds is now more confident speaking to professionals wheras in the past he was not.

Itsnotjustaslap :( :( :(
I've been through a very similar experience within the family courts and I couldn't comprehend the way really strong evidence was either ignored, dismissed or completely twisted. And as you say, because most people are totally unaware that this is what goes on they assume that there must be more to it or that it couldn't have been that bad etc etc xxx

Oh and a lot of people ask me if my ex was really charming in court etc. The answer is no, he probably couldn't have behaved worse, but it made no difference x

Woman's aid along with several other services have been campaigning about the issue for years.back in 2005 (off the top of my head) it did help get some changes as the resulting changes for want of a better way of wording it made it formal that courts had to consider DV when deciding contact.

Unfortunately many of the louder pressure groups tend to minimise DA as do many people.

What really frustrates me is the times I have a client who is at risk of having her children removed if she does not leave her partner so she does but then the ex can drag her through the courts for contact (successful or not)

It's just very sad the way abused women are treated by the courts, it's like being abused again.

Yes there is an excellent report by Sturge and Glaser that the lower courts are supposed to use but ours barely paid lip service to it. And family law week did another excellent piece in conjunction with womansaid

I found it worse than being abused tbh x

My god that bad baby . I will look that up and read it.

my experience was the same as itsnotjustaslap.

I was vilified in court and the process made me terribly ill. I hate reading on here that if there is DV the courts will protect your children as that just doesn't happen. The court wants fathers to have contact with children at all costs.

I can't understand how contact with fathers at all costs can be justified

There has to be something that someone can do?

For the process to be worse than being abused - well, that's just totally fucked up.

And for it to be so widespread - why don't people know more about how awful the system is? Is it because what happens in family courts etc should be kept private? Or is there a general disbelief that things really are this bad for victims?

I would suggest in this poor woman's case that she abides by the judgement by getting someone else to deal with the letters/photos (and makes it obvious that this is what's happening eg the letters are sent from her solicitor and say things like 'in compliance with the court order, here is the update on DC 1, s/he is doing well at school and in good health, here's a photo, best wishes mum's solicitor'. A court and the law cannot enforce contact between an adult and another adult, whatever the relationship - don't forget that when DC of abusers become adults, they can immediately cut contact with the abuser even if it has been enforced throughout their childhoods).

Notjustaslap: is there any way you can do a bit of that to your awful XP? Given that his motivation is to carry on abusing you, can you diminish his access to you and treat him with detached, amused contempt if you do have to interact?

'A court and the law cannot enforce contact between an adult and another adult'
They shouldn't but they kind of can. In our case, pickup was originally not that far from where we lived (20 mile round trip) and it was relatively easy for me to get a third party to do it. This was then changed by the judge so that it had to be from his house. This was now over a hundred mile round trip and virtually impossible for me to get a third party to do it. It had to be me....And this was while he was still being investigated for rape which the family court considered irrelevant.
In itsnitjustaslap's case, I'm guessing this would incur just more solicitors fees which would be a barrier. Also getting other people involved can be hard....you just dint want to drag others into it even though you know they'd probably be happy to help.

thewrathofnann it made her I'll. I can second that. Again clearly not in the interests of the child. Harming the primary carer will also harm the child, that's a no brainer.

fourfoxache I think it's just not in the public domain and it really needs to be. There needs to be high profile press about it but as you would be in contempt of court to talk publically that makes it very difficult :( x

I was vilified in court and the process made me terribly ill. I hate reading on here that if there is DV the courts will protect your children as that just doesn't happen. The court wants fathers to have contact with children at all costs

It sounds like it was a dreadful experience for you, but that's the thing about personal experience it can be different for everybody.

I could get feedback about really positive experiences from a significantly high amount of women myself included.

Of course that would not change what your experience was. And it does not mean the system is perfect

I'm not familiar with these things, but what is the possibility of setting up a crowdfunder for her to appeal this?

or a gofundme thingy. It is really horrid, because it seems like it happens often reading others experiences on here.

I’m in no way a lawyer, and I don’t have any real experience in how cases like this are dealt with. But I do read the familylaw website, which maybe gives me a little insight into how decisions are made.

Obviously we don’t have the full details, but I wonder if the more recent focus on the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights, especially with an eye to prisoners’ rights, played a role in the father gaining legal aid. But that doesn’t explain why the mother didn’t get legal aid as a victim of domestic abuse. (And he got only nine years?!)

Also, there’s been a lot of emphasis on keeping contact between a child and his/her birth family, for the benefit of the child growing up knowing their heritage/family origins. That latter point has possibly been reinforced by decisions in adoption cases, where there is now the emphasis that adoption should only happen when “nothing else will do” as that will permanently sever the connections between adopted children and their birth family/heritage. I wonder if the courts have been influenced by the allegations of “baby snatching by social workers to fulfil their quotas” which occurred a few years ago, such that some judges are now wary of severing any connection between a child and a parent lest it seem draconian.

I recall one decision where contact between a child and his/her father was refused, on the grounds of the psychological damage to the mother which would then have an impact on the child, but I can’t remember which case that was.

On the face of it, this is a case that does need to be appealed to the Supreme Court. If the mother can’t get legal aid, I would hope that a legal team will come forward to act for her pro bono. Though, given the restrictions on legal aid in Family Law cases, the number of lawyers willing and able to do pro bono work will diminish. It’s supposedly all about the needs of children, but when momentous decisions (of whatever kind) are made about a child by a Court, then the state should fund the necessary costs to ensure that the child’s best interests are fully represented via experienced lawyers.