...to ask MN-ers NOT to join in this glorification of domestic abuse? (contains spoilers)

[Floundering]

Fifty Shades of Shite

Can't believe the naivety and abuse deniers on here and amongst my friends.

DV campaigners such as Womens Aid & National Centre for Domestic Violence are urging people not to see this film.

It is not "just a piece of fun" it normalises abusive, controlling relationships as sexy, and it really bothers me so many women are colluding in supporting such crap that could hurt other more vulnerable women.

The BDSM community are frothing too as if done properly between 2 consenting adults with lots of planning, mutual respect and lots of affection and downtime after it can, for some, apparently be mindblowing. ( doesn't lift my skirt but respect those who do enjoy) this is not portrayed safely in this film.

What's depressing about this critique is how lazy it is. FSOG is clearly just mommy porn. It has nothing to do with BDSM. It's just a souped up domination fantasy. He could be a rich (surly) cowboy who owns a ranch or a rich oil tycoon or mr Darcy with a big dick or a rich whatever, it's a sexual fantasy about being dominated and spoiled by a rich man. There is plenty of statistical data than happy, fulfilled and non abused women have these fantasies. How many kids even read this? It's for middle aged women. Why would a 15 year old be reading it? People are just embarrassed because someone's made a movie of a mills and boon novel and it makes their pet "kink" look bad.

No, afaik there is some ambiguity where bdsm is concerned - I think the general consensus seems to be that consent can only go so far and you can't consent to anything that go beyond 'trivial and transient'.

I don't know of any more recent cases, though.

Flora I feel your views a slightly prudish and outdated. I enjoy whipping spanking and bandage and yes it leaves marks some times but it certainly wasn't assault I enjoyed it and asked for it quite literally. My dh is not committing a crime and it is normal to enjoy it as everyone has their own tastes and it's wrong to make others feel dirty and ashamed because of their sexual preferences

50sog is massively popular. The fantasy of a controlling man is clearly a major turn on for a lot of women. Are we saying that these women are wrong to be turned on by this? That sexual fantasies have to pass a public health test? Do all books and films have to passed this test? (Because the film industry is fucked if it's not allowed to glorify violence anymore.). Or is it just women's sexual fantasies that are the problem? Are women in particular unable to distinguish between fantasy and reality? Personally I see nothing wrong with anyone fantasising about being controlled, humiliated or raped. Which is lucky as these are common fantasies. And until I see some evidence that the fact that women have and these fantasies and enjoy books and movies that depict them has any impact whatsoever on the incidence of domestic or sexual violence in the real world, I'm not going to tell people what they should and shouldn't find arousing.

There are plenty of abusive relationships shown on film. One poster above mentioned the (very good) Secretary with Maggie Gyllenhaal.

How does depicting them necessarily glorify them?

It would be interesting to see Brown retried in a modern day context though.

There's surprisingly little so far as I can tell on the boundary between where the defence of consent begins and ends.

crocodile it's not the sexual element I have an issue with, it's Christian Grey being emotionally abusive outside of the bedroom and the misrepresentation of the BDSM lifestyle.

I have only read the first book and have no intention of wasting any more time or money on the other 2 .
they are role playing which they both want to do.It is no abuse.

Thank you plantcurtain I suppose what I'm saying is I wouldn't press charges and I would defend my dh if someone tried to say he assaulted me

Granted that only applies to our consensual practices of course

Just because plenty of women have fantasies doesn't mean we should disregard the context for them. Girl's and women's sexual fantasies develop in the context of our society and culture. Our culture places women as subordinate to men, women have a high risk of sexual violence from men and, as lurcio notes above, this is developing further into girls feeling pressured into having anal sex they don't enjoy. The same studies asked the boys if they thought the girls liked anal sex and they predominantly thought the girls not only didn't like after the fact, but they knew beforehand they wouldn't like it. We don't develop our sexuality in an environment of sexual freedom but of sexual domination by men.

By taking on those fantasies, women take cues from society and culture and turn them into something they do to themselves. That might feel "empowering" by creating a feeling that it's just sexy fun because I am doing it to myself, I am in control. But it is just internalising and fetishising the subordination that is imposed on women. There's no real empowerment in it, in fact it obscures the subordination and helps maintain it.

When women are dominant, that still recognises that the power imbalance is there and the thrill might be transgressing the power imbalance. But this still accepts that power imbalances are legitimate. They're not. No person should be assaulted, degraded or dominated and no person should assault, degrade or dominate another. There is enough of the real stuff going on in the world that to play act other people's oppression and suffering for an orgasm is demeaning to the actor and to the real person who endured the suffering.

Looking at the Brown case, it looks like no one pressed charges? It was just a raid on a bdsm sex party?

You can't dictate why people think and act the way they do flora that is insulting

I totally agree!!!!

What worries me is that in our society a lot of younger teenage girls and boys will watch this film and believe this is what a normal relationship is. Especially those in dysfunctional families or with SEN, both of which are groups where teens may not necessarily have appropriate relationship boundaries.

Apologies if anyone has posted something similar...

Also as others have said, consent is no defence to abh in general - but there are a number of exceptions- surgery, sports, horseplay. The latest HL authority, Brown 1994, says that there is no exception for bdsm type activities. However, that case has been heavily criticised by academics - bc it see sat odds with the horseplay exception (some army lad who was set on fireby his mates was deemed to have consented to his horrific burns bc the courts thought that boys will be boys) and bc the decision in Brown seemed to be influenced by homophobia (it was a group of gay men nailing their scrotums to bits of wood and filming it) - the house inBrown approved a previous court ofappeal decision saying that it was totally fine for a man to have branded his wife's bum as part of a bdsmrelationship. Also that case was decided 20 yrs ago. The general consensus is that brown is not going to be overturned bc the cps is not going to prosecute anyone for bdsm and so practitioners are not in danger of prosecution, but a statutory intervention is undesirable as it would, as someone said, potentially make DV sufferers have to prove they did not consent to violence (and the courts are horrible at handling consent.). Source - I am a lawyer (and typing on train so sorry for typos/ wall of text).

pineapple are you trying to shame me by saying I am prudish and outdated?

Brown was only 20 years ago. In legal terms, it's not an old case so "modern day context" is a bit of a stretch.

Still no takers on the incest option for consenting adults? What about people who role-play daddy / daughter incest?

@clashcityrocker - what's wrong with enjoying a fantasy about emotional abuse?

No I'm just saying that everyone has their own right to enjoy whatever they wish and you shouldn't judge others mental state on these decisions. You have made me feel like I should be ashamed of my practices and that what I'm doing is wrong and dirty I apologise if I insulted you

crocodile I don't think it is that simple as fantasising about emotional abuse. I think it's misrepresenting emotional abuse. But as I've said, it is a work of fiction and I think rather than be banned it does create a platform to discuss the issues raised.

And I'm not sure you can compare bdsm to incest, but it's an interesting point. If a couple consent, and use contraception, is it wrong? I think it is, but I'm not articulate enough to explain why.

We're not all walking around in vacuums of individuality. We are influenced by our culture and we also influence our culture. If people are free to say they think BDSM is harmless, other people are free to say it isn't.

There are lots of things I think would be distasteful sexual practices including incest, pretend paedophilia, Nazi / holocaust scenes, slavery (especially if it involved blacking up) and actual or pretend assault, rape, torture, degradation and domination. I'm not saying pretending to do these things should be illegal but I don't want those things to be part of our culture.

@florafox - I agree that culture feeds and forms people's outlooks. But the fantasy of a dominant man and weak and subservient womanis inherent in practically all popular culture. Arguably fetishising that power relationship makes it visible and is a step towards transforming it. Also, given that there is a huge audience for 50sog (to stay with our current eg) whose sexual tastes are presumably already pretty well entrenched (by the age of 10 or so I reckon) is it worth shaming and alienating such a large number of women (whose sexual identity has traditionally been denied/repressed) by refusing to acknowledge their unhealthy desires in popular culture when it's by no means clear that this is going to succeed in making the next generation of women (the only onewhose fantasies you can affect) more liberated. I actually agree that in amore equal society in the future sexual fantasies will be different. But I don't think it follows that the way to reach that society is by targeting people's fantasies today.

You can think that but to try and enforce those beliefs on others is wrong. There is nothing wrong with my submission in the bedroom nd there is nothing wrong with myself enjoying being whipped it does not impact on others or my personality.
Our culture is full of other things which people don't like you can't please everyone a nd we shouldn't censor people by dictating what is and isn't appropriate as that implies that people are too stupid to make informed decisions and makes it seem like you think everyone can be influenced so easily

Ive read a lot of the Black Lace books and they are extremely well written I dont see how they can be compared with this shite.

I posted a scene i remember from a Jackie Collins book on another thread.

HelenaDove Mon 09-Feb-15 22:45:19
I havent read 50 Shades but i read some of Jackie Collins books as a teen and ive remembered this really dodgy scene from one of them (cant remember which one as its been WELL over 20 years but its a scene where a man and a woman share a bed and she makes him promise he wont try it on or attempt sex with her.
She wakes up the next morning and before she knows it he "plunges himself inside her" I remember her crying out "You promised" i remember reading those 2 words even now "You promised. It was basically a rape scene but not acknowledged as such in the book, Just wish i could remember which one it was.

I guess what im saying though is that even though we have been here before with novels of a similar nature at least ppl now call things like this out for what they are!