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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

This is the saddest article I've ever read!

135 replies

Chillyegg · 04/02/2015 18:23

Women forced to be sterilised by courts!

m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31128969
I feel so sorry for this lady and her children.

OP posts:
EdSheeran · 05/02/2015 22:43

I only skimmed but they did pay heed to human rights in general and then followed this by saying that law permits the court to "interfere in their private lives".

There is also a note that this is an exceptional case. That said, it does seem uncomfortably with me but I can't quite articulate why at this time of night after a shitty day at work. Maybe tomorrow.

TheChandler · 05/02/2015 22:53

EdSheeran I only skimmed but they did pay heed to human rights in general and then followed this by saying that law permits the court to "interfere in their private lives".

The Charter, as opposed to the ECHR rights, are stronger and include the right to bodily autonomy. The usual staring point is the case of ZZ, or even Johnson. As a member of the EU, they are directly effective in UK law. I can see no mention of Charter, or fundamental rights, and only case law in favour of the judgment is discussed.

It is an extremely teleological judgment.

mrsmootoo · 05/02/2015 23:19

I'm not a solicitor like The Chandler, but I read the judgement. It seems to me that the professionals in the case made the best judgement for the poor woman concerned. Even if other lawyers (like the Chandler) had pored (sic) over the evidence and cleverly used lots of other cases to come to a different conclusion, would that really have been in the best interests of the woman, her partner, or possible future children, or would it just have been another lawyer scoring points? I think that reading the responses, most of us agree that this is the best outcome in this particular case, without agonising over eugenics and women being sterilised for no good reason.

ChoochiWoo · 05/02/2015 23:28

that thing about getting pregnant voa a health shop tablet was very wierd.

Bogeyface · 06/02/2015 00:32

TheChandler I realise that you are looking at this through a lawyers eyes, you said yourself that if you were being paid to do so then you could form an appeal. But the fact is that that would be simply to prevent opening floodgates, it would not necessarily be the best thing for this woman in this case.

I am deeply unhappy with the Ashley X case, despite very eloquent explanations on this very thread. I am not a "sterilise them all!" person in any way, shape or form. But, I do believe that in this particular case, this was the right judgement.

FightOrFlight · 06/02/2015 01:19

TheChandler

Can I ask what aspect of law you specialise in?

happyyonisleepyyoni · 06/02/2015 08:34

Moving away from the legal issues I think this case is an extreme example of the problems that can arise for vulnerable adults, where services are simply not funded to support them to the level they need and/or are not allowed to intervene. It scares me that there are people out there living independently but who are unprotected from their own poor choices and open to abuse by others
6 children adopted out of their birth family are quite possibly going to have attachment issues and other problems in future life. It's a tragedy for all concerned.

TheChandler · 06/02/2015 11:10

Bogeyface you said yourself that if you were being paid to do so then you could form an appeal.

I didn't say that. Attention to detail - I said that there is unlikely to be an appeal (because no-one is likely to appeal on behalf of DD). And that if I were being paid more money to form an opinion, I could do a better job than in 10 minutes looking over it on the internet at night.

But the fact is that that would be simply to prevent opening floodgates, it would not necessarily be the best thing for this woman in this case.

Well, that's probably true. We don't actually know what will happen to the woman - she could potentially be so distraught at a forced operation, she became suicidal as a result; alternatively it could encourage her to engage in even more risky sexual behaviour. But its not usually an argument for not opening the floodgates in other areas of law. The problem remains that it is a highly teleological judgment. If the UK wishes to have the power of sterilising women when it deems it in their best interests to do so, it would be fairer to either have it set out in a constitutional document (but the UK doesn't have a written constitution, so that's not possible), or in primary legislation, so that it can be debated properly before our elected representatives in Parliament (but that's not going to happen because its far too controversial, and too many people would object, unlike with the odd ad hoc highly purposive, teleological judgment, such as this one).

The problem with a teleological judgment is that the reasoning in it can be used very easily to extend boundaries in future judgments, and it leaves the law rather uncertain as a result. The facts in this case are very specific; the points of law are not sufficiently delineated and I would have preferred to see more restrictive statements in the judgment at the least, along with a recognition of the notion of the Charter fundamental rights (rather than a cursory explanation of the ECHR rights).

FightOrFlight Can I ask what aspect of law you specialise in?

Previously commercial property, now European competition law, via a role auditing the merits of decisions of a governmental institution.

shaska · 06/02/2015 11:52

TheChandler I see where you're coming from, from a legal perspective.

However, having read the judgement in full, I'd really recommend anyone who is worrying that there might've been another solution, or that more support should've been given, to do so. There are also previous judgements related to this woman that can be found, and they are fairly upsetting, particularly with regard to her other pregnancies and children.

It's incredibly sad. But I do think that the right decision was made, looking at it from a perspective of preventing further harm to both the woman and any subsequent children she would likely carry if the procedure didn't go ahead.

Owllady · 06/02/2015 12:24

*happyyonisleepyyoni

Moving away from the legal issues I think this case is an extreme example of the problems that can arise for vulnerable adults, where services are simply not funded to support them to the level they need and/or are not allowed to intervene. It scares me that there are people out there living independently but who are unprotected from their own poor choices and open to abuse by others
6 children adopted out of their birth family are quite possibly going to have attachment issues and other problems in future life. It's a tragedy for all concerned.*

My feelings entirely :(

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