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This is the saddest article I've ever read!

135 replies

Chillyegg · 04/02/2015 18:23

Women forced to be sterilised by courts!

m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31128969
I feel so sorry for this lady and her children.

OP posts:
FreudiansSlipper · 04/02/2015 22:30

I understand that support was given, and that it can not be given all the time I am just not sure if forced sterilisation is the way forward in cases like this

I can not say how I would feel if she was my sister or what I would think is best for her. I empathise with her family and others who are in a similar position and I would never suggest that anyone would be wrong in feeling this was the best option for their daughter/sister

happyyonisleepyyoni · 04/02/2015 22:32

Unfortunately there do seem to be some people who have such difficulties that they struggle to manage everyday life, but are deemed well enough to be left to their own devices, get pregnant and have child removed by services, rinse and repeat.

There's a longstanding poster on MSE who has family members in this type of situation. I also know of a family who have adopted 2 siblings from same mother and are now being leant on by services to adopt the third at birth-they cannot cope with more but neither can the mum.

Gileswithachainsaw · 04/02/2015 22:37

I agree that in other similar cases there may well be other ways or more support from family or whatever.

but in this case she's unlikely to even report she is pregnant so there would literally be no careful motoring of the baby, no surgical or medical intervention to prevent rupture (although that's probably not even possible) and no one with her who has the ability to help or call an ambulance or whatever.

She would literally just die. and lie there for however long.

This particular case I'd say there was no choice that allowed her to live her life as she saw fit. unless keeping her segregated in a room for the rest of her life against her will Is an option. but that's worse.

WandaFuca · 04/02/2015 22:41

Here are a couple of links to websites that contain judgments and decisions:

www.judiciary.gov.uk/ - TheWildRumpyPumpus posted the direct link - www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/re-dd1.pdf

www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=fo6 - for judgments/decisions posted this year.

These judgments aren't always easy to read, because judges have to be meticulously detailed as to why they reached their decision. I think it's worth people's time to read it (skipping over all the law stuff) just to get a feel of this woman's story.

In this particular case, it wasn't solely that she didn't have capacity to make suitable decisions about contraception, but also that she couldn't understand what a risk a future pregnancy would be for her own life. The obstetrician reported that it was evident during the woman's last c-section that her uterus was dangerously thin, so there's a risk of uterine rupture. The woman had tried to hide a previous pregnancy, so there was an even increased risk that if she became pregnant again she wouldn't seek ante-natal care.

This judge described this case as exceptional. It wasn't about depriving a woman of her right to have children, it was more about taking an exceptional step to save her from what could be a painful death.

fatlazymummy · 04/02/2015 22:41

freudianslipper what other option is there? Let her bleed to death? She can never have another child, therefore a permanent form of contraception is required, and that is sterilisation.

FreudiansSlipper · 04/02/2015 22:49

I don't know

I do not understand how it has got to this point

but I am just not comfortable with forced sterilisation

I am not saying this decision is wrong or right what I am saying is I do not feel comfortable with forced sterilisation

FightOrFlight · 04/02/2015 22:51

I dont think that refusing the sterilisation originally was wrong btw. The doctor had to be sure that she was requesting it with a full understanding of what it meant, and with good reason

I know, it was the correct decision based on her circumstances at that point. I think her age at the time (26) contributed to the decision plus, of course, nobody knew that she would go on to have 5 more children who would all be removed from her. Nobody could have predicted the medical complications she would face in later life.

To me the irony was that, from reading the judgement, it sounds as though it was the one thing she was actually consistent about for quite some time - well over a year - unlike her 'chop & change' attitude to subsequent forms of contraception.

ii) On 18 February 2003, at a GP appointment, DD expressed the wish to be
sterilised;

iii) On 3 September 2003, at a follow-up appointment, DD repeated her wish to be sterilised, although her partner did not agree;

iv) On 2 December 2003, at a further follow-up appointment, DD again expressed a wish to be sterilised;

v) On 18 May 2004, DD re-attended the clinic. Again she expressed her wish to be sterilised, stating that she and her partner were determined not to have any more children; she was referred for a consultation, although it was noted that she was then only 26 years old;

Bogeyface · 04/02/2015 22:52

I understand that support was given, and that it can not be given all the time I am just not sure if forced sterilisation is the way forward in cases like this

Not baiting, I get why you feel uncomfortable about this, so did I until I read the full judgement, but what other option would you suggest?

Its made quite clear that the woman (understandably) resents the constant intrusion into her life by health and social workers, this would ensure that such intrusion would cease to a large extent. Its easy to say "increased monitoring" but that has had an adverse effect in that the woman and her partner retreat further from the very agencies that are trying to help them and actually increase the risk of another concealed pregnancy, leading to an even higher risk of her death.

She wouldnt even engage with the solicitor engaged to ensure that her wishes were put to the court. There isnt really much in the way of options.

humlebee7 · 04/02/2015 22:56

Seems a sensible decision to me.

DoJo · 04/02/2015 22:58

it makes me feel very uncomfortable, I am not sure what the answer is I would have thought a lot more support for this woman.

But in this case, presumably the alternative would have been support which involved preventing her from having sex (somehow?) or enforcing another form of contraception (basically the same result as sterilisation except would need to be checked/monitored/replaced and doesn't resolve the bodily autonomy issue). Or 'allowing' her to engage in a sexual relationship knowing it could result in her death - if she is incapable of consenting to sterilisation, then can she be considered capable of understanding the potential implications of another pregnancy?

fatlazymummy · 04/02/2015 23:01

freudianslipper why aren't you comfortable with it? Do you know any women with this type of condition? They are incredibly vulnerable when it comes to sex, pregnancy and childbirth. This woman could have already died on a couple of occassions. Her surviving children could also have life long complications, especially the two born at home.
I certainly don't think sterilisations should be done routinely on learning disabled women , they should always be very carefully considered, but I just don't see how anyone can't see that this is in this lady's best interests.

FightOrFlight · 04/02/2015 23:05

It's worth noting that the form of sterilisation she will undergo has a 1 in 200 chance of failing during her fertile lifetime so there's no guarantee she will never fall pregnant again.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception-guide/pages/female-sterilisation.aspx

The only way of ensuring she never gets pregnant again would be a hysterectomy.

FreudiansSlipper · 04/02/2015 23:06

because as I have said before I feel uncomfortable with forced sterilisation

I do not understand how this situation got to this point

again I have not said it is the wrong decision or the right one

Icimoi · 04/02/2015 23:11

I think it's a bit glib to say she should have had more support and that would prevent all this happening. The indications are that she certainly isn't totally incapable - clearly she and her partner are managing, however chaotically, to feed themselves and look after themselves at least to some degree.

Her main difficulty in relation to medical decisions seem to be extreme rigidity of thought, which means that once she gets an idea into her head it is very difficult to get her to change her mind; and one feature of that is resistance to medical help. But if in general she has capacity to make decisions about how she wants to live her life, that means that she couldn't and indeed shouldn't be forced into sheltered or supervised accommodation, and she couldn't be forced to accept helpers turning up all day every day. And even if any of that could happen, none of those people could prevent her having sex and getting pregnant.

fatlazymummy · 04/02/2015 23:22

I agree fight ,hysterectomy would be the best option for this woman. It would also protect her from potential gynae problems in future years. Which I would think are quite possible after having so many children in a few years.

Bogeyface · 04/02/2015 23:23

I do not understand how this situation got to this point

You need to read the full judgement, there have been several cases involving this woman. The agencies that should be caring for her and supporting her have been trying to do so, but she has refused access, refused medical help, not attended medical appointments...... and in the end the only way they could ensure the safe birth of her most recent child was the get a court order for a C Section which included forcible entry to her home.

Its easy to say "give more support" but if the person concerned doesnt want that support and actively avoids it then what else can be done? Allow her to die because she doesnt understand or accept that the risks of another pregnancy would affect her? She has said that she doesnt believe that anything would go wrong.

Bogeyface · 04/02/2015 23:25

fatlazy I disagree. It seems that her monthly cycle is very important to her, and that she wants all of her organs to remain inside her. She seemed to believe that a sterilisation would be removal of something and was upset by the idea. The failure rate seems to be linked the skill of the surgeon concerned rather than general failure rates.

fatlazymummy · 04/02/2015 23:25

Well, I say hysterectomy would be the best option. Presumably her doctors don't agree there ,since they didn't apply for that.

fatlazymummy · 04/02/2015 23:27

Yes, you're right bogey . I forgot she expressed that wish, that's fair enough. Hopefully the sterilisation is effective then.

FightOrFlight · 04/02/2015 23:28

Hysterectomy wouldn't have been considered (and rightly so) as they will go for the least restrictive option available.

As Bogey says, the lady is very clear that she does not want any part of her removed so clip sterilisation was the best option.

MrsMook · 04/02/2015 23:29

It reminds me of the time the SHO came out of the early pregnancy clinic with his jaw hanging open saying, "I've just had to explain that pregnancy lasts 9 months". She really wanted the baby the next month and couldn't comprehend that it was not possible and would have to be another 7 months. It was her 5th pregnancy, and the baby was going to be adopted at birth, similar to this case. There was a long term partner involved, not a series of men.

It seemed sad to me that her life was a cycle of getting pregnant then having the baby removed. I'm sure in that situation, that she couldn't have mentally processed the risks of such a high risk pregnancy had it applied in that case.

There is no happy solution, but sterilisation seems to be the safest outcome long term against that level of risk.

Weathergames · 04/02/2015 23:30

Most sensible and brave desicion I have seen taken by a court in this country in a very long time.

WandaFuca · 04/02/2015 23:34

FreudiansSlipper - although you're right to feel uncomfortable about forced sterilisation, this is not what this case is about. It's about a procedure designed to prevent a vulnerable woman from getting into a situation where she could bleed out because she can't understand the risks.

RandomNPC · 05/02/2015 00:02

Most sensible and brave desicion I have seen taken by a court in this country in a very long time.

I agree. Seems to be the best result all round.

FightOrFlight · 05/02/2015 00:08

For me the case of Ashley X (aka Pillow Angel) was the most shocking intervention I've heard of. That really made me question the morals and motives of her parents and the medics involved despite some of the reasoning making sense (distress of periods etc.). I still can't wrap my head around it to be honest.

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