Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

This is the saddest article I've ever read!

135 replies

Chillyegg · 04/02/2015 18:23

Women forced to be sterilised by courts!

m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31128969
I feel so sorry for this lady and her children.

OP posts:
thoughtsbecomethings · 04/02/2015 20:04

I don't find this article sad I find it very sensible.

fromparistoberlin73 · 04/02/2015 20:05

I can see though that reading this when pregnant would make one sad

My day was ruined by that shocking death of the Jordanian pilot

So Yanbu to find it sad either !

fromparistoberlin73 · 04/02/2015 20:06

How do people manage to always find the sentencing notes. Amazes me

Owllady · 04/02/2015 20:11

The sad thing about it is that it's news
The woman should have guidance and protection, she obviously isn't getting it :( it's disgusting but I don't suppose anyone cares
I thought a certain amount of confidentiality was given to such vulnerable people with such significant learning disabilities?

Original poster
Chillyegg · 04/02/2015 20:11

I find lots of things sad.

And this I find sad. It might be sensible and pragmatic but it doesn't stop it In my eyes being sad.

OP posts:
IrenetheQuaint · 04/02/2015 20:26

I have read the full judgement and it is clear that there are many, many professionals engaged with this woman who have done everything they can to supply her with guidance and protection. But she does not have the capacity to fully engage with them, and nor does her partner.

Yes, it is very sad.

FightOrFlight · 04/02/2015 20:30

The woman should have guidance and protection, she obviously isn't getting it

Read the full judgement - she and her partner (who has a more significant LD than her) have repeatedy refused to engage with services to the point where they have had to make forced entry to the home for her safety. Easy to just blame social workers though isn't it.

Rather ironic that this lady asked to be sterilised 11 years ago after her first pregnancy but the operation was refused.

DoJo · 04/02/2015 20:31

In as much as a medical decision has been taken on behalf of someone who is not in a position to take it themselves, I do not think it's that sad. I actually find it quite heartening that such care and consideration has been given to the very difficult situation that everyone surrounding the case is in, and that those in the awful position of having to make this ruling clearly felt so much compassion for her.

Aeroflotgirl · 04/02/2015 20:38

I feel sad about her circumstances, but it was right she was sterilised, the onus has to be placed on the rights of the children and subsequent children.

Kachan · 04/02/2015 21:12

How do people manage to always find the sentencing notes. Amazes me

They are published on a publicly accessible website. Some of us work in the law and routinely read them, so not that radical or unusual. Also, on occasion it helps to link to the judgements to go diffuse the hysteria generated by media report.

Kachan · 04/02/2015 21:13

So many typos - damn phone!

Momagain1 · 04/02/2015 21:16

I am not blaming any one social worker, despite my phrasing. The system has failed them. what I mean is: why on earth are these two people, who are incapable of understanding sex and reproduction, or looking after themselves in general, not living in some sort of completely sheltered accommodation? Helping people to live mainstream lives is one thing, but there are people who simply cannot care for themselves and who cannot ever be propped up no matter how wide the stream of social workers, loving family and friends and volunteers stopping in day in and day out. If they were ever evaluated as capable, they have long since demonstrated that evaluation was flawed. They are not capable.

Owllady · 04/02/2015 21:19

I don't have time to read it all tonight. I've read to point 35 though and its bloody depressing :(

Owllady · 04/02/2015 21:23

I agree with you momagain, they obviously need much more support than they have and have needed it for some time. I'm not sure why people have to be so sanctimonious about it

fatlazymummy · 04/02/2015 21:31

I find it very sad too, OP. Sad that this poor woman has already been through 6 pregnancies and births. Sad that there are 6 children in care who possibly have difficulties of their own and sad that this wasn't done sooner.
I say that as the mother of a daughter with severe learning difficulties.

FightOrFlight · 04/02/2015 21:54

I agree with you momagain, they obviously need much more support than they have and have needed it for some time. I'm not sure why people have to be so sanctimonious about it

Nobody is being sanctimonious, people have read the full judgement and therefore know the circumstances.

The lady in question may not have capacity regarding sex and pregnancy but may well be capacitious in all other areas of her life. Capacity is assessed on a decision specific basis.

Forcing her and her partner into a supported living environment would be illegal and would be a violation of their human rights. The house might be filthy but if they are able to cope with daily living skills then they cannot be made to move. If there was a serious risk to their health and safety then a Best Interests decision could be made. Plenty of people live in filthy houses but they aren't made to move.

FreudiansSlipper · 04/02/2015 22:03

it makes me feel sad

I am able as we all are to feel sad about more than one issues at a time

it makes me feel very uncomfortable, I am not sure what the answer is I would have thought a lot more support for this woman. I am not comfortable with forced sterilization

fatlazymummy · 04/02/2015 22:09

After reading the judgement it would seem they actually had quite a lot of support. She seems to fall in the middle - not disabled enough to require continual care and supervision but not able to make decisions to protect herself or her children. I do feel sorry for her, but I think this is the best and most compassionate course of action. It's just a shame that she wasn't sterilised when she asked for it.

StrumpersPlunkett · 04/02/2015 22:09

I feel sad for this woman, however I also feel sad for the children she has borne without the capacity to care for them. I know it is not uncommon for women to have multiple children removed at birth. Support systems to stop the child being harmed or neglected showing time and time again that the courts will have to intervene.
The whole thing is indeed v v sad.

RJnomore · 04/02/2015 22:18

The judgement is very sensitive

It discusses the risk to her life from a further pregnancy; her inability to grasp the concept of contraception and the basics of reproduction; her other severe health issues including protracted fitting; and the fact that sterilisation will mean less intervention in her life from other agencies, which she finds objectionable. For example, use of contraceptive injections would mean ongoing medical intervention.

I get very twitchy about this type of intervention and I do think it's sad but in this case, I think it was the right decision. It will allow her to continue a full life with her partner without the massive risks she takes from a pregnancy, risks which she is not able to understand and mitigate in any way.

It also mentions that she most likely suffered from childhood sexual abuse, which is truly awful, but she does seem to be in a committed and long term relationship now which is I hope a happy one for her.

Bogeyface · 04/02/2015 22:22

I have just read the whole judgement and I think the judge had no choice.

She is in what appears to be a stable (if chaotic) relationship with her partner who also has significant learning issues. She refuses to accept that any of the risks she has been told about will apply to her, she refuses to engage in any way with health and social services and appears to be continually conceiving in hope of replacing her eldest child, who is now 12.

Its absolutely heartbreaking, she seems to have an appalling childhood herself and just wants to be left alone, but in order to save her life, I dont think there is any alternative.

Gileswithachainsaw · 04/02/2015 22:23

it makes me feel very uncomfortable, I am not sure what the answer is I would have thought a lot more support for this woman. I am not comfortable with forced sterilization

but support wouldn't stop her having sex and getting pregnant. even if someone stayed in the house 24 hours a day it could happen in the time they took to shower or poo.

The answer really is sterilise or death.

I can't see any other option as much as it is an uncomfortable thought that she's not being given the choice with her own body.

but in these circumstances the choice would kill her. If that Was your sister and you begged a Dr to get a court order because her life was in danger how would you feel of it was refused and she died through something so preventable.

It's awful. truly the whole thing is tragic but there really isnt another way

Bogeyface · 04/02/2015 22:26

I dont think that refusing the sterilisation originally was wrong btw.

The doctor had to be sure that she was requesting it with a full understanding of what it meant, and with good reason. The doctor obviously didnt feel that was the case. Can you imagine the outcry if he had done the operation and it turned out she didnt realise it was forever? He would have been struck off.

RJnomore · 04/02/2015 22:26

I put that badly sorry - its her inability to grasp the basic of contraception and reproduction in relation to the risk to her that I meant (if that makes more sense)

Reddragon116 · 04/02/2015 22:30

The system hasnt failed her its just a crap set of circumstances - not everything is 'fixable' or predictable unless you are prepared to spend huge amounts of money monitering and then you would be accused of over invlovement and taking away the couples autonomy - such as it is.

Swipe left for the next trending thread