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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Men and housework...

85 replies

madchocolatemum48 · 03/02/2015 11:10

Background: Dh works away a lot. When he is home he renovates our new house.
Our house is now finished (but dh still works away)
He is home for quite long periods at a time ( a few weeks) with not much to do now around the house.
I am a SAHM and do lions share of everything, never a problem before.
He helps when it suits him and when I ask him specifically to do something.
Is it unreasonable to think he should do more without having to write a detailed list.
"can you tidy the bathroom? means something completely different to him than it does to me, for him it means lifting towels from the floor Confused So I end up saying "Can you pick up the towels, clean the dinnermints off the sink(Blobs of kids toothpaste)use the loo brush in the loo, checking for 'dribble' marks while doing so, clean the mirror of kids fingerprints etc,etc,"
Don't get me started on "Can you tidy the kitchen?" .......
When he does use his own initiative and vacuums a room with out being asked, then I get the impression a standing ovation is required from me.
It's like having a 3rd child, the way things have to be explained to him.
Is it just mine or do most men just not get the housework thing.

OP posts:
OutsSelf · 03/02/2015 17:02

I have a ft job and two DC aged 4 and 1. DP has pt work which doesn't really bring in much and he looks after the kids. I do most of the cooking, half the cleaning, most of the food shopping. DP does most of the laundry, the bins & recycling. I think we do the same amount of house work, he does amore day time child care but I do every evening and any night time parenting. In many ways my DP is doing much more than most men I know but I'm doing waaaay more than other FT WOHP parents except one that we know. That other one is also a woman. In the early days of my job I'd be getting home at 7pm and DP wouldn't even have THOUGHT about dinner so the kids would be fainting and we wouldn't have anything sorted, he wouldn't even have noticed if there was anything in the cupboard TO eat. I found that very irritating - specially as I feel I would have been vilified for failing the kids if that had been me not bothering to feed them but I was always getting told how lucky I was and how great he is.

We seem to have sorted it but fuck me, folk have low expectations of men. Funnily enough it seems to be the same people with their low expectations who think feminists hate men!

Babycham1979 · 03/02/2015 17:14

....and yet the vast majority of women still choose to be the primary carer of their children. It could be biological; it could be societal, but there's no getting away from that fact. Until 50% of women decide they DON'T wont to be the primary carer, we'll forever be stuck with the convention that housework falls to women.

dogelove · 03/02/2015 17:21

Oh jesus OP, why don't you just lose your shit at him?

Ask him whose house it is - yours, his or home to both of you? And if it's both of you, then why the FUCK isn't he helping out running the household when he is at home? Is it "beneath" him in some way? It is a "woman's place" to clean the fucking bathroom properly? Is he really such an IDIOT that he thinks leaving dishes on top of the dishwasher and not putting them away is somehow HELPFUL? Does he expect you to fall on the floor in gratitude when he bothers to push a fucking hoover around the house?

Well? WELL????

Or does he think that by acting like some kind of helpless man child that you will eventually just back down and pick up after him like some kind of fucking house keeper? HUH?

Really OP. He isn't taking you seriously because you are just accepting it. Sure you might moan about it every now and then, but you've never been REALLY angry at him so you can't mind THAT much can you?

That's what is happening in his head. By giving him a few home truths he is going to have to accept the fact that he is acting like a total knob end.

Mrsbird311 · 03/02/2015 17:22

This is my point babysham it seems like doing housework and childcare is somehow derogatory and the raw deal when if you are a SAHM it's lovely , get kids to school, bit of housework then the day to yourself , dinner, quick tidy up kids in bed job done!!! Obvs if you are a career woman who loves her job then housework should be 50/50 but I'd choose housework any day

Charlotte3333 · 03/02/2015 17:24

DH here works longer hours than I do but still helps around the house. He was bought up by the world's craziest Mum who believes men shouldn't lift a finger. It's all well and good when they're young but when they get a wife and kids, they have to learn pretty damn quick to pick up their own underpants or get strangled with them.

DH is wonderful and does lots now. When we moved in together I had to teach him how to do stuff like sort laundry, iron shirts and keep the bathroom clean. I blame his Mother entirely and now I have two sons I get them doing chores about the house for nothing more than a smile and a thank you.

OutsSelf · 03/02/2015 17:25

I feel sure that many women truly believe they are THE best carer for their children. Which sounds to me like our childcare facilities are a bit hit and miss and people aren't seeing being good at caring for children an essential skill for men. I'm sure that if you believe your partner is as able as you and if your working opportunities equals theirs, many women would make different choices. But actually there is a gender pay gap, a convention that men marry women who are younger - it's harder to equal your partners working opportunities if you're younger and the female partner. And people just don't have the same expectation that men care and do the housework so well. Women CHOOSING aren't doing so in a vacuum where all other things are equal.

YesIDidMeanToBeSoRudeActually · 03/02/2015 17:40

The presence or absence of a penis has absolutely no bearing on a persons ability to clean.

Some PEOPLE are just lazier than others. I'm a "if the floor is clear I'm happy" person, DH isn't happy until everything is cleaned and polished to a high lustre. Luckily he does most of the housework, but I think if he didn't and I did, he would have to live with it if it was acceptable, if however he wanted everything to have a deep clean each day, he would have to do it.

But everyone's relationships are different, and it's about finding a compromise that suits you both and leaves both of you with equal free time and spending power - if these basics are met, generally things are good. If in your case, he isn't pulling his weight and you know it's due to laziness rather than just lower standards, that's not on.

But his penis does not affect his ability to do housework. Unless it's ten feet long and dragging behind him. Although that would polish the floor.....

angeleyes72 · 03/02/2015 17:49

The op doesn't get a day off whilst he is away though. She is responsible for the care of the dc and running the home. I bet he does less hours per day when away than op does. Only right he should pickup slack when home and split things more equally. Yes, he is solely responsible for bringing wages in but ehilst he is doing op is working too caring for their chkldren. If she wasn't there he couldn't work away. Imagine the childcare bill.

WoTmania · 03/02/2015 17:56

Not all men are like it but sadly many men are from my observations - the assumption on everyone's part that it's women's work and they will do everything or the lion's share even if they are working.
DH and I have things we share and then jobs that are predominantly ours as we either like them or they're the ones we dislike least.
I can't stand this attitude that 'well he's been at work, why should he do anything on getting home' because if you are a SAHP, especially of small children, you are looking after children all day as well as trying to do housework. Some days can be a breeze but other you get bugger all done and those days it's entirely fair that when they get in they do their share. It's not like you've been sat on your arse doing nothing particularly in cases where you're doing it all on your own for weeks while he stays in hotels.

juulie · 03/02/2015 18:00

It can't always be that black and white but I do have a similar problem with my dh. He's quite good at doing stuff, i.e. he does quite a lot, but I just don't like the way he does it. I always have to walk the line between micromanaging and putting up with it being done in the manner of the Harry Enfield work experience boy. Eg: tidying up living room means picking up all the crap and throwing it haphazardly all over the floor in another room instead!

juulie · 03/02/2015 18:07

I reckon if he will take instruction on how you want it and does it that way then that is something to build on. Hopefully he will eventually be better trained up in how to do it and won't require as much instruction? We do train each other in relationships I think. Not just being mean to men! He has different ideas and standards than you re housework and probably lots less skill, experience and interest, so I suppose if he's prepared to learn that's something. I totally understand people getting irate on the subject. I do too sometimes, but it's probably better for your sanity, your relationship and the state of the house if you try to view it as a neutral communication issue that can be worked on rather than a politically loaded, emotive battle of the sexes! Too exhausting, especially if he is at least showing willing and has potential!

darkness · 03/02/2015 18:43

I got soooooooooo fed up of this I now have a list of all the jobs that are required for a room to be done tacked up in each room
so the kids and DH are under NO illusions as to what needs doing..
I have considered, (controlling Witch that I am)
also putting up a photo of "what this room looks like when it is tidy"

but as step one has worked ..I didnt
it took about twenty minutes and has saved me countless hours...probably outed me too, although most of the lists are inside cupboard doors

rachelmonday1 · 03/02/2015 18:59

OK, as a lone voice in the wilderness (I'm actually a guy and husband), I sympathise with OP completely. I too renovated (virtually doubled the size) of our house and work away from home. It took me 7 years of weekend working and any evening that I was home. I admit to not doing too much housework during that time, but now that the house is finished, I happily (a and without any hints or instruction) do housework and take pride in keeping the home in good order. Too many men see it as women's responsibility, at their peril. Some might argue that I'm not a typical man (agreed) but actions make a man, not ones occasional choice of clothes.

Dutch1e · 03/02/2015 19:08

My DP, although a home-owning full-time worker when we met (so not a babied youngster) had a turning point one weekend when our DS's nappy wasn't changed for hours (wet, not poo, and no nappy rash). When I asked "when was DS's last change today?" DP sort of double blinked and said "shit, I didn't bother thinking about it as you're here." He is now a SAHD while I work full time so he really understands the mechanics of running a family home... but that conversation was his Lightbulb Moment regarding gender conditioning. It's a real thing.

viva100 · 03/02/2015 19:15

My DP is not like that at all, he cleans and tidies without being asked and does it very well. He likes the house spotless. But he lived on his own for 5 years before I met him and his family live in a different country so he had no choice but to learn how to be independent.

vdbfamily · 03/02/2015 19:17

I agree that men should help out but however frustrating it may be,I am not sure why the woman gets to dictate the standards. Many women are obsessed with how clean and tidy their house has to be and expect their partners to not only help out but then moan if it is not to their standards. My DH often leaves stuff out when emptying dishwasher as he thinks it will be used again soon.I prefer it to be put away. My opinion is not more important than his. Last year I spent 5 months non-weight bearing with bad ankle injury. My husband worked full-time,looked after me,3 kids,shopped ,cooked,did laundry etc and I learnt that the housework not being done does not make a big difference to ones life.Maybe we should all just take a chill pill occasionally. For what it's worth,I did also learn in that 5 months that if there was something I needed doing and I wanted it done a certain way,I had to be prescriptive about it and not expect DH to be a mindreader about how I like things done.

WoTmania · 05/02/2015 11:22

vbd - I disagree that that is always the case. I know many many families where the male partner has ridiculously high standards that the female is expected to meet and he does virtually nothing (and expects a massive round of applause when he 'helps out').
I've also noticed that when houses aren't pristine people almost invariably blame the woman not the man, even if she works too.

NeedABumChange · 05/02/2015 11:39

Agree with pp above. There is a definition difference between tidy and clean. If you asked me to tidy the bathroom I'd have done the same as your DH. If you asked me to clean it I'd have done what you wanted.

So YABU!

newnamefor15 · 05/02/2015 11:58

Agree again that there's a big difference between clean and tidy. OP - sort out your meaning more clearly so he has no 'get out clause'.

Different standards also come into play. DP does his fair share of tidying and cleaning without discussion or agreements or anything being needed; he understands 2 adults = 2 adults do the stuff that needs doing. Where we have different standards, which we do on some things naturally, we each do it to our own standard and the other doesn't bitch about it. Another time round the person with the higher standard will end up doing the job so it all gets done thoroughly eventually. He's more obsessive about the kitchen, I'm more obsessive about the bathroom. I suppose that we'd feel different if it were always the same one of us with the 'higher' standard than the other and had to keep taking up the slack.

However, I have changed the way I do some things. I'm naturally more of a let everything get really messy then have a big blitz person. He's more a tidy/clean as you go person. I've picked up some of his habits now (like giving the hob a quick wipe every time you use it instead of waiting to clean it when it's visibly dirty) as I can see it's nicer to live in, and it's probably less work overall. And he's learned to live with my piles of papers etc until I get around to clearing them up every couple of weeks.

OP - is it possible your DP is more of a 'blitzer' when it comes to housework? When you are in that frame of mind it seems daft to clean/tidy something that is already pretty clean/tidy. Preventative cleaning just isn't a thing to some people.

anothernumberone · 05/02/2015 12:20

My DH is pretty good with housework but I do find it incredibly frustrating that the details of what needs to be done needs to broken down into the minutia of the task. For me really cleaning the kitchen means washing hob, cleaning oven washing floors maybe doing a press if they are getting manky. For him it means loading a dishwasher and wiping counter tops. He is definitely not useless but if it not a defined part of a task he won't think of it. Our answer to this is to give him the much dreaded repetitive tasks of washing, ironing and making school lunches. It works well for us.

anothernumberone · 05/02/2015 12:23

Press = Irishism for cupboard I forgot where I was Grin

Thurlow · 05/02/2015 12:28

To me, what always jumps out in threads like this is the "standards" expected - to quote a PP, I am not sure why the woman gets to dictate the standards... expect their partners to not only help out but then moan if it is not to their standards.

I swear I've seen something like that in countless threads.

People do have different standards. Going back to an example used earlier, one person might leave glasses on the side as they are going to be used soon, another will want them all put away. One person might put dirty crockery straight into the dishwasher, one person might put it all on the side to stack the dishwasher later in a particular way.

It's not as simple as right and wrong - people have differences. I can't abide the way my OH puts washing on the airer. But it's still on the airer, and drying, so I'm hardly going to have a go at him because he does it differently.

And the more one partner 'nags' about the way something needs to be done, the more they are claiming it as 'their' responsibility.

WineIsMyMainVice · 05/02/2015 12:34

My DH used to be really good - until I had a years mat leave and he got used to me doing it all. When I went back to work we had words and he started doing more - but I still have to ask him to do it! Ggggrrrrrrr!

Worksallhours · 05/02/2015 13:34

OP, you have my sympathy.

In the early years of my marriage, I was working full time and DH part-time, and, inevitably, almost every Saturday morning, I would blow up about the housework -- because I was waking up after seven days of 6am starts and 11pm finishes to face an entire day of washing, ironing, cleaning, and vacuuming, with DH just hovering around like a confused bee.

Since then, I have managed to educate my DH about housework to quite a significant extent. He's not magnificent with the housework, but we have got somewhere and I no longer explode on a Saturday morning.

There were three sources of my DH's uselessness that I identified ...

  1. Parental conditioning was the most influential. My DH's mother did all the housework in their family home when DH was young. However, it wasn't so much this that influenced his behaviour (ie. that he had grown up believing housework was "women's work") but that, by doing everything in the home, his mother had inadvertently trained her son into being domestically useless.

For example: even to this day, my DH will leave used plates, cutlery and glasses on the worktop above an empty dishwasher. I never understood this, particularly as he had become the person who filled and emptied the dishwasher, until I realised at my ILs one weekend that his mother insists on everyone leaving used crockery and cutlery and glasses on the side so she can personally stack the dishwasher "properly".

In short, my MIL trained my DH to leave used stuff on the side for so many years that now he cannot override the conditioning.

I realised this "conditioning" affected loads of other aspects of housework for DH, and there were also quite a few anachronistic habits as well -- such as being very strange about leaving a teaspoon in a hot drink. Grin

  1. Again, because he had grown up with a mother who did everything, no one had ever taught him how to view the domestic sphere from a position of responsibility. He couldn't see the the housework that needed doing because he had never been taught to see it. This was incredibly disempowering for him because ...

  2. ... he simply did not know why I did certain things -- because no one had ever explained it to him.

I found that explaining exactly why certain domestic jobs needed doing helped my DH massively. During this process, I realised that I actually don't do a lot of housework for aesthetic reasons, although I presumed I did. Instead, I actually do them for health and safety reasons, and that is why I can get so upset about housework not being done.

As a side note, I found it pretty interestingly to consider the extent to which aesthetics is an evolutionary visual shorthand for safety and health, even in terms of modern domestic environments.

Any road ... when I worked out and then explained the health and safety angle to DH, he started to get it (I had to think about it because it was just so ingrained in me that I was no longer conscious of it). So, for example, I would tell him that we needed to vac to get bits off the floors because if there were bits on the floors, we might track them into bed or into a bath, or a baby/toddler might accidentally consume them, and we didn't actually know what those bits were. The cat might have brought something on its fur, for example.

Same goes for washing floors. People come into the hallway wearing their shoes and we have no idea whether or not they might have walked in something horrid, which now may be on our floor.

I did this for every domestic job and a few others as well. The approach turned what he assumed was a lot of silliness over aesthetics into a "responsibility to protect" -- and that fired into aspects of his male gendering.

It has been fairly successful.

TheRealAmandaClarke · 05/02/2015 14:12

Housework is always a problem within relationships imo.
Oh, i know of one exception where there is apparent contentment at the division of domestic labour.
Its a drudge.
The ppl I know who "don't mind" doing housework are quite controlling about how other household members behave. So their dp (male or female) is wary of leaving things out/ untidy because they don't want to be "told off"
Its shit
Its all shit.
There is no solition other than to pay a ft housekeeper. Which is exactly what some ppl who work ft with a sahp at home think they have done.

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