to think the NHS is a bit crap

[eyebags63]

And because it is treated almost as a kind of religion nobody is allowed to say anything negative about it at all. And actually just because it is "free" (a mere 110bn a year) doesn't mean we should be eternally grateful for bad treatment.

My experiences are of elderly relatives being mistreated in hospital, non-existent services in some areas, screw-ups, buck passing, treatment delays, being treated as a number with no dignity or privacy, a significant number of staff that appear not to care one little bit. I could go on.

In other health systems people can get referred and treated within days or weeks. Here we accept that waiting for months on end in pain is normal. We accept exhausted staff, lack of access, dirty hospitals, ambulances queuing outside hospitals and restricted treatment resources.

Yes it is "free at the point of use", but isn't that half of the problem? Walk into any GP surgery or A&E and you can witness so many abuses of the system. On the other hand genuine patients are often seem to be treated as a nuisance.

I'm not saying the NHS should be scrapped but surely it is about time we at least looked at different ways of doing things.

(I should add that I do see some reason in arguments that the system needs to change also. I think GPs are grossly overpaid for their qualifications and we have a shortage, with those who are employed horrendously overworked. I believe that if we paid them half as much we could have double the number and give them all better conditions of employment, rather than having so many at psychological breaking point. They'd still earn a great salary, far above the average wage and commensurate, say, with university lecturers who are actually far more qualified! More importantly, we would get an intake that was less middle class and more full of those who really WANT to do the job for the job's sake, rather than those who want the wage and status. I do think that solving health inequalities necessitates giving kids from poorer backgrounds who have first hand experience of those environments access into these jobs also.)

I don't think it's crap, but I do think the whole system is at breaking point.

My experiences with them have been brilliant on the whole, although we've had some issues with the treatment of my grandmother and an elderly great aunt (admittedly most of those were exacerbated by social care)

I watched the Panorama programme on A&E last night and it's clear, they are struggling to cope

I don't think just throwing money at it is the answer though, I think there's a danger of throwing good money after bad. It needs a complete overhaul from top to bottom

perspective21
Sorry but I actually "lol'd" are your comment about PALS. I would rename them the patient fob-off service as they are utterly useless. In fact making a complaint in general is a waste of time in my experience. If you are lucky you will get the "lessons will be learned" response and the disingenuous "we are sorry you felt that way" apology.

I think the comment about the NHS doing emergency care well and routine badly might be generally true. But then again my DF was left was admitted to hospital in an emergency, his operation was delayed due to miscommunication and he was left sitting in a ward for 5 days. They did the operation at the last moment, he nearly died and is now permanently disabled.

It sucks doesn't it Bank? $50 is for a child something like $60 for an adult but I would not know as I cannot afford it! And I'm in Dunedin, the cheapest city in the country, I dread to think what its like in Auckland. Always a two hour wait, unless you go at 10pm. They also do bloody fractures there, instead of taking them to the hospital.

GP is slightly cheeper and you normally can get an appointment within a week but always running behind.

OP l agree but hear on MN how good it is so think it must be a postcode lottery thing.

My experience of giving birth to dd on the NHS was utterly fucking awful. To this day l have not met another bunch of horrible people in one place. They were rude, mean, indifferent, chaotic and bullying. It was truly a terrifying experience.

Going to the GP is another shit experience (if you can get in). But people here are terrified of the alternative (pay when /if you need) and assume the world will end if that day ever comes.

I personally hate it but resent that l should pay into it and then have to pay to go private.

Perspective21, that only works if you have a good and committed PALS service and the services you use are responsive to PALS.

It also assumes that the people using the service are capable and able to complain. My Dad had a really horrendous time in hospital recently, it was filthy, the nurses were all Phillippino and talked in their own language over him, he was left with food out of reach, he's disabled anyway and also had an injury which stopped him caring for himself, he was transferred to another much better hospital. The better hospital actually went mad at the other hospital because they transferred him on a cold December day in only a thin hospital gown without even any underwear. They knew they should complain but they didn't because my Dad isn't in good enough health and my Mum was taken up too much with caring responsibilities. I had an awful experience when I had my baby and I never complained because I was too busy with a newborn. My Gran had a bad experience with an Arabic doctor who took her into a room with two other Arabic men, didn't explain who they were and kept breaking into their own language amongst themselves. All three of them were also stopping and answering their mobile phones while what should have been a confidential consultation was taking place. She didn't complain because she was afraid of being called racist.

I found the same thing in my work, often the services where the worst care happens are those where the services users are least likely to complain, dementia wards, maternity wards, geriatric wards. And even when people do complain they're dismissed as being precious or demanding. Staff response is combative rather than receptive.

I think that what's needed is a body to scrutinize and follow up complaints to PALS and ensure that complaints are acted on.

PossumPoo I wonder if you gave birth in the same place as me? Sounds like it. But yes, that's what I mean. People don't complain when they have a newborn. And it's so easy for maternity wards to hide behind 'Doing it for the sake of the baby'. My exprience on a maternity ward was something akin to being a prisoner of war.

YABU
My family have had a lot of treatment and care from the NHS, my father had excellent cancer treatment last year, he had 8 weeks of daily radiotherapy which would have cost £thousands. The care he received was exemplary and we couldn't fault it.

Both my daughters have life long conditions, they will need drugs for life and because of this they don't pay a penny for prescriptions as they have medical exemption certificates.
The care and treatment given when trying to diagnose these conditions was second to none.

Our GP is fab, she will phone us at home and gives all her patients at least 15 minute appointments. We always have a wait when going to see her but don't mind as she is so good.

I cannot think of anytime in my life (I'm almost 50) that I have had cause to complain about the NHS

I think that we are very lucky to have it and I believe the medical staff, especially those in A and E do an excellent job.

The NHS is a great system and being centralised with great buying power and autonomy, and I think cheaper than what the private sector would charge, but its not above criticism

Unfortunately bad eggs seem hard to get rid off, there is also a lot of money wasted wether its by patients not turning up to internal waste (stationary reprinting,signage, ward renaming) and periods of having managers with no medical experience/appreciation.

There are some good bits to the NHS. If I got knocked down today I would be taken to hospital and treated. If I got appendicitis today I would be taken to hospital and probably operated on.

That side is good. Well mostly - apart from the poor sods that are rushed to A&E in ambulance only to have to wait 40 minutes in the ambulance until staff become available.

The waiting list are a joke as is the lottery that goes with how you are placed on those waiting lists.

I recently was put on a 6 month waiting list to see a consultant (or anyone other than my GP) about a breast lump. Imagine my horror whilst fighting this and trying to get seen in the recommended 14 days (some 4 weeks later) to read that the very consultant I was referred to was in court on a case where he had also decided another lady could wait 6 months to have her breast lump investigated and she now had incurable terminal cancer. He had to make the decision on who to prioritorise and who not - because there are too many referrals, not enough staff or resources for every single woman to get the same 14 day referral. Luckily I lived on the border or 2 health authorities and managed to persuade my over stretched GP to refer me to the other hospital eventually and I did get seen within the 14 days I was referred to them - but some 6 weeks after my initial referral. No one can claim this is a good service.

My grandmother was left dehydrated and sat in her own feaces until we turned up to feed and clean her because there were not enough nurses available on the ward. The nurses there were overstretched and doing their bestwith what they had but frankl it was shit.

None of this is the fault of the people on the ground but all of it is the fault of an abused system.

We have come to accept waiting 9 or 12 months for a hospital referral or 4 to 6 weeks to start chemo after a cancer diagnosis. Yet in many other countries you are seen and treated within days.

I dont know what the answer is but ther NHS is in a terrible state and no longer able to offer a world class service. Infact - some of the things that go on leave us closer to some hospitals in the 3rd world (people dying on trollies in corridors, dirty hospitals etc.

I am glad its still there but I seriously worry for the next generation. My daughter has a health condition that will mean privatisation will price her out of any care probably - but how well will she be cared for on NHS in 25 years time I wonder? So much has changed in the last 25 years and not all for the better good.

Fines for missed appointments would be easy to do - you don't get seen again until you have paid and if necessary could be taken from PAYE/benefits at source. But everyone must pay as it is those who are currently exempt from all charges that are often the worst offenders.

Agree with postcode lottery comment or at least what I said before about different trusts being managed differently which I think makes all the difference. I stay in the borders and the infirmary I go to is amazing and both times childbirth was great and when I had pneumonia they were fabulous. Where as the infirmary over the border I hear and see nothing but bad things about both the maternity unit and the hospital e.g, friend of mines FIL went to a & e with chest pains and was discharged told he had heartburn with antacids only to be phoned up an hour later saying they had got his notes mixed up and actually he had had a mild heart attack! I think it's all down to management

Moan are you in London? If so it's possible.

I had to have counselling to even consider trying for DC2.

I don't think just throwing money at it is the answer though, I think there's a danger of throwing good money after bad. It needs a complete overhaul from top to bottom

The Coalition are not throwing money at the NHS though but to Private companies to run parts of it - who need to make a profit so staff wages are cut, or not given their measly 1% payrise, this is the Tory way always has been to run a public service to the ground to justify private companies - In saying that labour too said the same thing to justify PFI so they are both using the NHS as a football while 71% of MP's stand to benefit financially from private healthcare companies.

This is the problem - not the NHS which is struggling to cope with all the changes, cuts, re-organisations and closures.

We need to fight for our NHS -but not this political war that is going on between the two major parties - Neither of them are trustworthy

And our gp surgery is fab at least the one I transferred us to is, the old one was crap, never the same doctor full of locums etc. doctors now has 2 doctors so we see same one all the time and they run walk in clinics every morning and evening so at least we are seen when we are actually Ill

BankWadger, yes, but knowing what an 'exemption for low income people' is I don't think that would work. Looking at prescriptions for example, it normally means people who are in receipt of some sort of benefit get something, but then you have a layer of people who just out on the exemption but still can't afford it. Normally people working on low wages, and of course you have areas like London where people are on comparatively high wages but have little disposable income because of high housing and travel costs.

And to be honest, these are exactly the people who are most deserving of the service because they pay the most of their income as a % in tax.

I think the NHS is fantastic for serious conditions but awful for elective surgery (and elective surgery is pretty much everything non-life threatening it doesn't mean someone has chosen to have it).

My dad was left unable to walk after an NHS dr pretty much refused to let him go private when he was brought in to A&E. He was arrogant and wanted to do the surgery himself and messed it up. There was a catalogue of errors cumulating in what will probably eventually be the loss of any movement in his leg. He has now been disabled for 6 years. We couldn't dance at our wedding and he's never been able to play with his grandchildren. The dr admitted negligence. This type of story is sadly uncommon.

that being said the NHS has enabled many parents to be at their children's wedding and meet their grandchildren. For serious conditions I think they are great.

I would like a top-up system for elective surgery to have it done quicker and have more say in who does it.

I also forgot to add I couldn't fault my maternity care and think that's another area that the NHS excels.

HeeHiles, introducing private companies to run part of the NHS was not brought in by the coalition. It was brought in by Labour about the end of 2008/start of 2009. I know as I worked on putting together bids for services which went up against bids from private companies at that time.

I also agree that throwing money at the NHS is not the right answer. It tends to go to the wrong places. There are a lot of people sitting at the top of the NHS who make a lot of money from it whose interests are served keeping money in the pocket of themselves and other managers rather than spending it on patient care. Politicians are reluctant to tackle this exactly because they get the whole 'ZOMG, you're criticizing the hardworking NHS' when actually these people haven't set eyes on a patient for years.

We have just started to break away from treating NHS like state religion. The NHS bit of otherwise wonderful 2012 Olympic opening ceremony was like North Korea. My experience of NHS maternity care was shocking. My experience of care as MS patient is OK. By the way, it isn't free - we pay for it in N I contributions from which,as far as I know, you cannot opt out.

I think one of the main problems with the NHS is that it is run by the government (whichever party that is) and used by everyone. This means making the changes needed to save it will be hugely unpopular with voters and so no party dares do it. Any party will lose votes if they introduce charges for example, so they don't. Instead they make grandiose announcements about this that and the other, set targets which are largely unacheivable and general just tinker about with it.

The NHS as a concept is great, and we should be proud to have it. But we also have a great sense of entitlement and possibly ignorance with regards to it.
That's why people turn up to A&E with things that the pharmacist could deal with. And why old people block beds for days on end because their family couldn't possibly deal with the hassle of having them at home for a few days while a care home place is sorted.

Remove it from politicians control and then we might see changes made - otherwise it will go bust, probably in our lifetime too.

What would be classed as a low income? I work for the nhs but couldn't afford to pay for gp/hospital appointments. I do think something needs to change. My local hospital is understaffed at patient level but overstaffed at management level.

I don't have time to read this full thread now as I'm currently sitting in a family room for the neuro icu, waiting to go and see my brother. Not 2 weeks ago he suffered a major brain haemorrhage and is only with us now (albeit still in a critical state) thanks to the excellent and quick work of a number of NHS specialists, from paramedics, A&E docs and nurses, neurologists, cardiologists, anaesthetists, radiologists, intensive care nurses... The same organisation that saved his life are now helping him to recover.

So actually, I think the NHS is doing a fucking good job all things concerned.

To everyone claiming the NHS is amazing because of 'insert anecdote about me/my child/my parent being ill and the NHS made us better without hospital bills', there's always the flip side to that. You got good treatment, a lot of people do. But equally, a lot of people get not-so-good treatment.
I almost died after a minor, routine surgery in an NHS hospital because the doctors refused to listen to me and I was just another number on a ward. My grandmother almost died because the nurses caring for her paid no attention to how she was deteriorating and just continued with the basic routine they had. When she was then admitted to hospital, seriously ill, they gave her medication that she reacted badly too, and never checked to see her reaction, they just kept giving it to her.
Another family member died because the doctors wouldn't listen to her saying she felt ill and wrong again, and her cancer came back and killed her.
I'm grateful for the NHS, of course I am. There's no way I would be able to deal with a health service like they have in the USA, for example. But you can be grateful for a service and still recognise it is failing in a lot of places.

What I also find quite frustrating is politicians seem to be focusing on the wrong issues. At the moment labour are obsessed with privitasation when this government is barely doing any more than labour were before. Then this government going on and on about GP access and how it must be 24/7, but there are simply not enough GPs to do that. They want to train more GPs but constantly use their attack dog (daily mail) to bash GPs for being overpaid, lazy, incompetent, etc.

I think the whole approach needs changing but you can't do that until people accept there is a problem. At the moment everyone seems brainwashed into saying how 'amazing' the NHS is an minimizing the very significant issues.