to think maybe we should just abolish state education altogether

[Caronaim]

Having left teaching after 20 years, I can look back at it a bit more objectively now I am out of it.

It is a total and utter disaster zone.

The children who do well are the ones who are supported at home, if they don't get that, nothing that happens in school will compensate.

much of what happens in schools is assessment rather than teaching, and teachers spend more time recording the results of assessments than they do even doing the assessing.

Records are often not even true, you have to cook so much of it. Records are extensive, but much of what I spent my working life recording has never been read back, either by myself or anyone else.

I ended up working up to 18-20 hours a day, of which 2-3 hours max was actually educationally beneficial.

Some children behave well, but can't learn because other children whos parents don't care about education, behave badly.

So how about we close all state schools, and give parents the money in the form of education vouchers instead. parents could buy resources, or pay for tutoring, or club together to hire a classroom, or apply to have their vouchers redeemed into actual money to allow a parent to stop work to home educate, with certain conditions.

more people would be able to afford private school, and more private schools would open.

parents who encourage their children to behave badly at school would have to deal with that behaviour at home.

Children who do well at school would probably do even better at home, and children who do badly wouldn't do any worse.

The country would save vast amounts of money towards paying off the national debt.

What about children with sen? Would their parents receive the extra money that schools currently receive for them?

are they anywhere?

at least in the UK it's free for all

you seem to have disdain for the very kids that need the most support - what would happen to them under your new system - since you have concluded their parents don't care

(I work with parents who don't - and don't even send their kids to school )

ghoslty whats your ansa if you work with these parents and children.

Caro well technically they can be asked to leave, but will they be as long as the cheques are paid on time?

Private schools are after all just businesses.

• ghostyslovesheep Wed 28-Jan-15 21:49:04

totally agree with this have no idea what ebd is - but in normal state school, how to deal with disruptive pupils who probably need 100% effort and support but are not getting it in the state system and also ruining other dc ed.

I think the parents would start to care an awful lot more if they were directly involved in their children' education and became aware of the consequences of their behaviour.

Yes, some parents do actively encourage their children to act up at school. I've experienced it regularly.

to encourage re-engagement and to work with other agencies to ensure kids have access - as we do now

I am not the one saying state education is shit - I don't think it is - I think it's being made shit by privatisation and cuts in funding - but I don't think the idea is at all a bad one

you are the one who argues on one hand that some parents don't care but at the same time those parents should be give control over the budget for their childs education

BLUE

I guess it depends on success of school, if you see any of the 3+ 4+ 5 and so on threads in primary! you will see how cut throat competition is to get into these places...they are not going to tolerate bad behaviour and I imagine it gets dealt with very swiflty as there are literally hundreds lined up to take place!

however if school is struggling, not great rep, then yes i imagine it would retain ..

consequences? such as?

ghostly I think the parents would start to care an awful lot more if they were directly involved in their children' education and became aware of the consequences of their behaviour.

I think the parents would start to care an awful lot more if they were directly involved in their children' education and became aware of the consequences of their behaviour

I agree. Its just not accepting authority and I know what you mean by parents being forced to take more of a positive role if they are the ones stuck with the products of their parenting all day...rather than shoving them to a teacher who then has to do crowd control all day.

ghostly what to do with more low lying levels of disruption though even one child doing low level stuff..on a regular basis has dreadful knock on effect how to deal with that, when I imagine interventions going on with children in more need.

sorry I mixed my posters up then

I am ill in my defence

I think if you invest in more support staff and better provision for disruption kids you get results - kicking them out is just more confirmation that they are worthless

and academies can't get rid of kids quick enough - our LEA had to build a new PRU to accommodate the ones we got when our schools went private

The problem is op, a total sense of powerlessness and hopelessness.

Some students told work experience students, that sitting the school was pointless they were pretty much all drug dealers, its all they knew and what they would do full time when left school.

These were pupils singled out and put into a special group.

but you said that the parents don't care ...how would that change? A lot of the ones I work with hated school themselves and see no value in education

I think if you invest in more support staff and better provision for disruption kids you get results - kicking them out is just more confirmation that they are worthless

Yes it would take an awful lot of money to provide all sorts of care etc to help these students but I bet in the very long run it would be worth it.

I care very much and don't send my dd to school, her brothers went all the way through school, but she decided it wasn't meeting her needs anymore and asked to leave.
We opted out of the system and are free from all the bureaucracy, but it isn't for everyone it wouldn't suit all.

What about the parents who couldn't H.ed or afford private?

The problem with your solution to the inadequate (for many) system is that government would still require to legislate and provide policies. It would still be state managed if they were footing the bill.
Tutors would be accountable to gov and parents, just the same.
What else could they do but assess.

However I imagine - whilst they were being treated they would not be in the normal class but elsewhere..

The EBD school has 1-1 staffing at all times - this costs but the kids do engage (at times) - many gaining GCSE's where they would have left with nothing before

the problems then arise post 16 when no one is geared up to meet their needs

*A lot of the ones I work with hated school themselves and see no value in education

so how do you get them to see the value of their childs education?

and what are their needs post 16.

Yes it is worth it - there is a good postery thing somewhere that details the cost of NOT supporting young people (I think it relates specifically to LAC) - it details the cost of unemployment, petty crime, pregnancy, social services involvement, hard crime, illness, depression etc on society compared with the cost of investment aged 0-18

I have taught in many state schools as a supply teacher. There are some good state schools- but the majority seem to be dominated by low level disruption. A few teachers are able to deal effectively with behaviour management - but why should they? Their job is to prepare lessons, to inspire, to equip students with skills- yet day after day they have to deal with the behavioural problems caused by circumstances outside the classroom . My heart goes out to these brave, kind people- but wonder why should their conditions of work be so ridiculously difficult?

they need to be somewhere that meets their academic and behavioural needs - very few places can do this

SEN provision generally had been mushed together and watered down post 16 - unless it's via very expensive independent colleges

Ghostly, for example, the parent dropping their year 7 child off at his new secondary school last September shouting "remember, don't let those teachers think they can tell you what to do" would not be shouting such things if he himself was attempting to teach his child, and could see how little progress his son was making in the very basics of maths and English.

The parent called in in November after their teenage daughter had picked up a stool and smashed a whole bench worth of science equipment, would not have turned to her in admiration and said " I wish I'd had the nerve to do that to my old science classroom" if he had been responsible for the budget that equipment had to be replaced from.

"It was only a text book, what is all the fuss about"

" Well she is a child, and children can't be expected to not to laugh at a teacher who look different"

" You stupid girl! haven't I taught you to check for CCTV cameras first!"

etc etc etc etc

Just a few random gems from a few parents. I think if they saw how far their children fall behind, if they have to replace resources out of the budget they control, if they know the private tutor/ private school will not tolerate disruption, if they saw what has to be covered to get a reasonable clutch of GCSEs, these parents would support education a lot more.

you get the CHILD to value their education - you get them to invest in it - often they bring the parents with them

I have kids who are the only people up in the morning - who get themselves up and out and into school on time - because they feel it's worth it - sometimes all you can do is engage the kids