To think the vitriol against cycling has gotten a bit much?

[BuggersMuddle]

Obviously I'm a cyclist. I'm also a car driver, motorcyclist and pedestrian, so I can genuinely see all sides of the debate.

I've cycled to work on and off for years. In the past I could recount many tales of cars pulling too close, but very few real 'incidents'. Nowadays I could recount probably a couple a week easily (none on my weekend or non-peak time training cycles ).

My cycling ability has if anything got better not worse. I have more money, so my gear is certainly better and I have more hi-vis, better lights etc. the latter of which which you would think is good but apparently a cause for complaint as well

I do commute in Edinburgh, which does have transport issues since the tram debacle, so I don't know if this is colouring my view. All I know is I used to cover 10 miles by road a day and rarely had an issue. I now cover 12 miles (usually), of which half is on cycle path and seem to be open to all kinds of a abuse & general intolerance.

Not confined to me though, more friends have started wearing cameras in the event of incidents and the online abuse on Facebook groups / local papers in the event of cycling incidents or (god forbid) cyclists complaining just beggars belief.

AIBU? Am I just unlucky, or does the general public really seem to hate cyclists as a group? Or is it just where I live?

It's the usual actions of a minority spoil it for the majority I think.

I sometimes drive, occasionally cycle but mostly walk and different circumstances and experiences will stick in my mind.

So the cyclist who whizzed out of a side turning and crashed into the side of my car when I was stationary at traffic lights, who shouted and swore at me terrifying my young child in the process, removed my wing mirror and dented my car before riding off with 2 fingers in the air leaving me with ££ of repair bills will stick in my mind.

Or the cyclist I nearly hit when he jumped a red light right in front of me

Or when walking my on lead dog on a shared cycle path (one of those paths with a white line up the middle) a cyclist, at ridiculous speed on the wrong side of the path crashed into my dog, breaking his leg leaving me with ££ of vets bills

The one that knocked my young child off her bike using another local cycle path as a race track - the cycle path is supposed to be shared use, but it has become a bit of a no go area as it's used by some cyclists to race down.

Or the one that hit me and then got aggressive when I was crossing at a pedestrian crossing and he jumped the red light

Or when I drove round a tight bend (at low speed) and was confronted by about 15 cyclists all over the road, shaking their heads and swearing because I had the temerity to be on the road.

They worry me and, wrongly I know, it's the above that sticks in my mind and colours my judgement. The sheer arrogance and aggressiveness, refusal to accept they were in anyway in the wrong worries me. That and the fact that I was left £ out of pocket with absolutely no come back

Aargh, iPad went mad and I posted too soon.

Obviously, I give cyclists plenty of space if I'm driving and yes, I do see just as many examples of bad driving, but the vulnerability of a cyclist worries me.

Do you likewise despise drivers who endanger people?
What a strange and somewhat pointless question

It was a strange and pointless thing to say in the first place.

oh no I love them!

I dislike inconsiderate road users, and that includes drivers and cyclists.

Some cyclists genuinely think it doesn't matter if they shoot red lights, nip up on the pavement at crossings so they don't have to stop, undertake or ride 3 abreast deliberately so people can't overtake.

It does matter. It's dangerous. I equally dislike people who cut me up at roundabouts or tailgate me, but I am less likely to kill them if there is an accident. Cyclists are really vulnerable; I drive considerately because I know this and I'd rather slow down for a bit of my journey than risk hurting another road user, so it pisses me off that some cyclists (not all) have such a cavalier attitude.

Delphine - I know you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. I am unreasonable and hate cyclists' bells but I do understand that sometimes you do need to use them.

Plaice you hit the nail on the head - cyclists are vulnerable and should watch out for themselves. Drivers should be sensible and considerate - they are driving around in dangerous metal boxes. But that doesn't mean cyclists can stop being careful.

Bumbling - yes impatient cyclists. I once asked on a Guardian forum why cyclists won't use safe off-road cycle paths (I was particularly thinking of the A24 through Dorking which is a dual carriageway and has a segregated path which the lycra louts don't use). I was told they don't use them because they don't like encountering families. But they'd rather take their chance with metal boxes doing 50mph and above than slow down and cycle round families?

I live in Sheffield and we have trams. I have seen three bad accidents involving cyclists on tram tracks over the last 9 months or so. It's always on the same stretch of road which is 20 yards away from another road which has a dedicated cycle track but for some reason most of the cyclists won't go down to it, it's empty, never used. And it's so dangerous but they just won't use the cycle path, I don't understand it.

I also get very frustrated with the kind of cyclist who 'takes command of the road' and drives bang centre in a lane where there is plenty of room for a car with a bike next to it. Normally because they get off on the kick of holding up all the traffic behind them. And again I normally find this happens most often on a road near me were there is also a dedicated cycle path which is never, ever used.

Interesting article about perception of cyclists as "lawbreakers" (media bias etc)

garethrees.org/2012/01/10/bias/

my opinion of cyclists as lawbreakers and as dangerous is formed by what I see and experience on a daily basis, not by any media articles.

Most cycle paths are terribly designed, with traffic turning through them at junctions.

On this thread we have had moans about people both using them and not using them. Some people just like to whinge about cyclists.

quote:

"Confirmation bias explains how incorrect beliefs persist, but not how they arise. Here I believe a second cognitive bias is responsible: the outgroup homogeneity effect. This is the tendency to believe that members of an outgroup are similar to each other, much more similar than members of the ingroup. Cyclists are a tiny minority in the UK, so when someone sees a cyclist breaking the law, the most salient group to which they belong is cyclists (as opposed to the many other groups, such as men or tall people, to which they might belong), and then the outgroup homogeneity bias leads people to generalize from this cyclist broke the law to cyclists in general have a tendency to break the law. You can see that there is a bias in effect because it doesnt happen for ingroups like motoristswhen one driver breaks the speed limit, people dont think that this means that drivers in general break the law."

BeCool read the article I linked

all this bad feeling towards cyclists doesn't come from nowhere though does it?

Nearly getting knocked off my feet by a cyclist who

a) has gone through a read light at a pedestrian crossing

b) is cycling on the pavement

is pretty much a daily occurrence for me.

Or have a look at some data.

"I also get very frustrated with the kind of cyclist who 'takes command of the road' and drives bang centre in a lane where there is plenty of room for a car with a bike next to it. Normally because they get off on the kick of holding up all the traffic behind them."

And you know they are "getting off on the kick of holding up traffic" how, exactly? Are they cackling evilly while holding up a sign saying SCREW YOU SUCKAS I'M MAKING YOU LATE? Often what looks like "plenty of room for a car with a bike next to it" can feel pretty damn risky when you're actually on a bike, especially if, for instance, there are cars parked at the side of the road.

Also dunno about where you live, but here in Dublin a lot of the "cycle lanes" painted on the side of roads are also full of parked cars/broken glass/giant holes (sometimes hidden by puddles/leaves) and are genuinely dangerous to cycle in. DP actually buckled a wheel in one giant cycle lane chasm a few years ago.

Not excusing genuine bad cycling behaviour, but cycling defensively/in mid-lane is not bad in and of itself.

MoanCollins - I live in the same city, and I do not recognise your depiction of cyclists here at all.

I think also that it's important for drivers to recognise how dangerous roads in bad condition are for cyclists. Potholes - an annoyance in the car in terms of slight damage to suspension and jangled nerves - become absolutely lethal for those on a bike. Roads in some cities are in an appalling condition because of budget cuts and in some cases, this makes cycle paths completely unusable. There are several such in Sheffield.

It is difficult because there are a lot of bad cyclists. But then there's also a lot of bad drivers and bad pedestrians!

I think people in general are getting less considerate on the roads. Pedestrians think they can just walk out wherever they please (I got a load of abuse shouted after my car the other day for daring to honk my horn at a bunch of drunk dicks just walking down the middle of the busy road); cyclists seem to think they can run red lights and mount the pavement when they feel like it; drivers just don't give a shit and goad cyclists on purpose (or, as happened to my DH lately, they run a red light coming off a motorway slip road and narrowly miss bloody killing him).

I did shout after a cyclist and call him a dick after he nearly hit me by running a red light the other week (I was on foot). I hope he heard me!

The "taking command of the road" is about stopping cars from overtaking when the cyclist considers that it's dangerous. However, I'm capable of making my own mind up about when it's safe or not to overtake and I'd rather a cyclist (or indeed the tailgater behind me) didn't try to influence me.

Cyclists make a big thing of car doors. Actually people opening their car doors into traffic is dangerous for everyone. Why do they do it? Why can't they just get in on the passenger side and shuffle across. Or just wait until nothing is coming?

"I also get very frustrated with the kind of cyclist who 'takes command of the road' and drives bang centre in a lane where there is plenty of room for a car with a bike next to it. Normally because they get off on the kick of holding up all the traffic behind them."

I cycle in Edinburgh like the OP, and there's a stretch (Carrington Road) with no separated cycle or shared path, parked cars both sides, and pavement markings indicating cyclists are to take the lane (white painted bicycle shapes in the middle of the lane). I can't count the number of times I've been tailgated or had a car pass with less than a metre to spare. I'm not doing it because I enjoy it, I'm doing it because it's the safest way of getting down that road without running into a car door opened by someone who isn't looking. There isn't any reasonable alternative route, this is the quickest way for me to access the shared foot/cycle path network and get out of traffic so I can pootle along.

My favourite part of cycling is the way home, after I hook up the trailer and pick up my son from nursery. We go on the cycle path probably 90% of the way, and I'm quite slow (combination of heavy load, mediocre fitness, and acknowledgement that momentum makes it harder for me to stop as quickly as pedestrians might expect if they don't see the trailer right away). I ring my bell for pedestrians and the tiny number of cyclists slower than me, knowing that some will be annoyed, but I'd far rather annoy them than hit them because they didn't know I was there.

The clothing thing annoys me. I always wear a helmet, and most of the time I wear lycra tights and a high vis yellow cycling jacket, and have bright lights with frequently replaced batteries. I also ride a step-through hybrid and have panniers. The style of bicycle suits me, and my back is happier when I carry the load on the bike frame. But for the same reason, the clothing is sensible given the Scottish weather and limited light part of the year. My winter cycling tights have reflective strips, are wind and waterproof through the front of the thighs and they dry quickly. The jacket helps keep me visible and is waterproof to boot. People saying cyclists should just wear "normal" clothes obviously haven't tried cycling for 45 minutes through a downpour on the nursery run with a hungry toddler in the trailer. That said, in the summer I'll cycle in a skirt and t-shirt with a high vis vest overtop, it's all about being sensible for the conditions.

"Cyclists make a big thing of car doors. Actually people opening their car doors into traffic is dangerous for everyone. Why do they do it? Why can't they just get in on the passenger side and shuffle across. Or just wait until nothing is coming?"

Yup, it's a bad idea generally to do it without making sure the road is clear. The problem is that cyclists are harder to see if you don't look properly, and many drivers seem to just have a quick glance (or none at all!).

The issue is some car drivers just want to get to where they are going at all costs, woe be tide anyone who gets in the way, be it, other drivers, buses cyclists, horses and pedestrians.
No one is spared the wrath, I wouldn't mid 90% of the frothing lunatics couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag if it came down to a confrontation..
It's just another symptom of society ills..

"The "taking command of the road" is about stopping cars from overtaking when the cyclist considers that it's dangerous. However, I'm capable of making my own mind up about when it's safe or not to overtake and I'd rather a cyclist (or indeed the tailgater behind me) didn't try to influence me."

It's not just about stopping cars from overtaking you, it's about making yourself visible as well, and possibly avoiding the aforementioned potholes at the edge of the road. And I'm not sure why you think you know so much better than the cyclist about whether you should be passing them out. I've had cars/buses whisk past me at what I considered a frankly terrifyingly small distance (like, handlebars grazing the side of the bus, if I'd hit a bump in the road I'd have been fucked) because they "felt capable of making their own mind up".

"Cyclists make a big thing of car doors. Actually people opening their car doors into traffic is dangerous for everyone. Why do they do it? Why can't they just get in on the passenger side and shuffle across. Or just wait until nothing is coming?"

I don't know, but people do do it, which is why cyclists "make a big thing of it" (I'm not sure why you're saying "make a big thing" as if they're exaggerating, given that you agree that it's dangerous and not something people should be doing). My sister got doored by someone last year and ended up with a nasty knee injury. People are frankly just stupid sometimes.

I forgot to say YANBU OP.

Also, to sum up my points of last night, some cyclists break laws. But also some drivers do - especially laws that are there to protect other physically vulnerable road-users such as cyclists. Many car drivers don't seem to realise that cyclists actually have a right to be there, and are often wont to whistle past a few millimetres from our legs with no appreciation that in the event of a collision it's flesh against steel. I can only assume this carelessness is borne out of aggression.
I would like to see red light-breaking cyclists penalised, but not by being crushed by angry motorists wielding tons of steel.

shovetheholly I don't know where you live but there is a brand new off road cycle path down Penistone Road which I've never seen a cyclist on but Infirmary Road with the tram tracks is chocka with cyclists even though the tracks are dangerous. Ditto the road between Waitrose and the University, brand new cycle path, no junctions but there's always one dick going straight up the road blocking one lane of traffic in the middle of rush hour. It's totally unnecessary. And in the case of the team tracks dangerous for themselves.