To think ethics in shopping count? (Aldi and Lidl)

[penguinpear]

There was an article in the Sunday Times this weekend about dairy farming. Over the past decade the number of dairy farmers has halved and more are going out of business all the time.

Aldi and Lidl are reported to pay only 56-59p for each four pints they sell. In contrast Tesco pay 73p and m&s 78p.

I am really upset by this, as I think we have a bleak future if people care only for their own pockets and not anyone else, including animals whose welfare will get worse if people have no interest in the supply chain.

That's interesting (in a bad way), Interrobang, I didn't know that. It will make me think.

Interrobang that is interesting. I've heard dairy is not necessarily healthy for humans before. Is soya milk better? I like that.

Love this story.....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hear-the-bored-baker-his-haiku-sainsburys-tale-he-explains-it-all-9425309.html

www.facebook.com/Dairy.TheTruth?fref=ts

www.facebook.com/BloodyDairy?fref=ts

penguin, dairy is TERRIBLE for humans, truly dreadful. We have been lied to. Remember when they said cigarettes were fine? Same deal. Some good info here: www.facebook.com/pages/The-China-Study/30125373591?fref=ts.

I like soya milk, but try and vary my milk alternatives with almond milk, hemp milk, and coconut milk. The dairy industry will try and muddy the waters and tell us importing soya is devastating our planet. The truth is, most soya is fed to cattle. People consuming soya directly use a small percentage of the soya grown. Dairy industry is desperate to discredit the anti-dairy brigade. Same for the meat industry. No ethics there at all - how can there be, when an animal has to die? We know we don't NEED meat, so it is therefore unethical to kill an animal purely for our tastebuds.

I haven't had any dairy in 15 years, and I am thriving. My child is four and has never had any either - again, thriving. I'm pregnant again and my blood results are all perfect. We do not need it. Follow the money. Animal protein is detrimental to human health - I would never choose it for my child.

if you can tell me where I can buy milk at a higher price, with the farmer getting enough of the higher price, I'm there IF I don't burn gallons of petrol getting to it. (academic anyway today as the car has decided to protect the environment by not starting)

the staff in my local Aldi are happy and friendly - and I make a point of telling the manager that. Aldi has less choice, which means less packaging and less waste. (Hence lower prices) Every little helps.

There is no ethics in dairy farming, you do understand that, right?

This is my view. Even I can't sympathise with animal farmers, no matter how much they struggle to make a living, because what they do is inherently cruel.

From what I've read, Lidl & Aldi pay their staff better than the other major grocery retailers (though I don't think this includes Waitrose). So yes, ethics count, but it's a multifaceted issue. I don't have access to all the pertinent information, but I'd be astonished to find that Lidl/Aldi are less 'ethical' than Tesco overall.

I think it's a lot bleaker than that when you see how unnatural the modern milk is. I didn't know this until we started drinking straight from the cow that isn't bred for intense production (we have to boil it). When my kids first tasted it they said "that's not real milk, it's sweet and what's that solid stuff?". It makes me sad that modern food is so removed from nature. Even outdoor pork, tastes like the supplemented, processed crap they feed the pigs. Don't even get me started on milk alternatives.

Knowing what I know now, if I was in the UK I would choose to have less money in my pocket and avoid supermarkets as much as possible. I'm sure costs can be cut elsewhere if necessary. Unfortunatly the results will be long-term, so most people won't bother with them. My youngest two children might live longer and healthier lives than my oldest two and that makes me sad. But changes made when they can be made are better than no changes at all.
If everyone went straight to the suppliers, even the poncy farm shops then big business inequalities would be reduced, poncy prices would drop and all lives would improve. Sadly that's not likely to happen any time soon.

I don't think any livestock farming is great . I was vegetarian for 8 years and prefer to buy pork from Waitrose as it seems to be the only supermarket to sell free range pork.

I don't think dairy cows go through constant suffering and some other animals have worse lives but conceptually yes the whole set up is a bit shit.

I shop everywhere.

But I buy organic milk usually from M&S, sometimes from Waitrose, Tesco, or Sainsbury. I've never seen organic milk in Lidl.

"ethics count, but it's a multifaceted issue. I don't have access to all the pertinent information, but I'd be astonished to find that Lidl/Aldi are less 'ethical' than Tesco overall."

And this ^^

I am not sure that the 'Organic' label means better animal welfare tbh, I think it could be a fallacy.

people do not go to LIDL for organic milk, they go there for reasonably priced family shopping with not too much choice.
I would bet my last fiver that ALDI and LIDL have better 'ethics' than TESCO

Interrobang

But what has your view on whether it is ethical to eat meat or not got to do with rip off supermarkets underpaying dairy farmers? You are vegan because its a choice you have made, I am not and will never be, that is I choice I (and the vast majority) have made. The fact is that you will never get people cutting out meat or dairy to the extent that meat production either ceases or is made more acceptable in terms of ethics.

You could argue that if supermarkets paid a fair price for milk then dairy farmers wouldnt have to go to the lengths they do in order to try and earn a living wage and animal welfare would improve. You could also argue that the price wars have led consumers to expect unrealistic pricing of food to the point where paying anything like what a product actually costs to produce is anathema.

Whichever way you look at it, it comes back to the supermarkets and them squeezing farmers dry.

Same for the meat industry. No ethics there at all - how can there be, when an animal has to die? Thats your opinion, and by implying that anyone who consumes meat is unethical will simply alienate the very people you are hoping to educate about different ways of eating. Its a very inflammatory comment to make and has no bearing on the issue under discussion.

farming is cruel, eh?

hmm. So the chap delivering the heavy bag of hay to the sheep opposite my house every day in all weathers is cruel? Should he leave them to it given the grass is not adequate at the moment?

yes, the sheep will end up in the larder. Higher animals eat lower animals.

ps homo sapiens is an omnivore. There's very little we must eat or must not eat. No animal protein at all does kill us due to B12 deficiency, so vegans need a supplement.

otherwise; no dairy, no meat -fine. Just make sure you eat a balanced diet containing all the nutrients you need and use your teeth rather than juicing

sorry - not animal protein. B12 is only found in animal sources.

The fact is that you will never get people cutting out meat or dairy to the extent that meat production either ceases or is made more acceptable in terms of ethics.

I don't know bogeyface, people make a lot more fuss about welfare standards than they used to and so a lot of companies have jumped on the bandwagon of trying to improve welfare. Admittedly they are doing it to earn a quick buck but I don't think the cow/pig/sheep/chicken cares about that.

And specialsubject - Higher animals eat lower animals.

Not necessarily.

"B12 is only found in animal sources."

not so Marmite has it

www.soilassociation.org/animalwelfare/cowsandsheep

Organic does mean better treatment of the animals, and the environment - there are some issues still of course (nature of lactating) but organic practices take both the mothers and calves into consideration, i.e.calves being weaned from mothers milk at 3 months for example, and animal welfare into account.

Organic dairy farmers are encouraged to use lower yield breeds of cow. Commercial dairy hers tend to have been bread for very high yields and suffer lots of mastitis etc.

Organic cows aren't routinely injected with antibiotics/hormones etc, common in intensive herds.

Organic milk is widely available these days - I keep my shopping bill down and I am a LIDL customer (when I can as I don't have one local to me) but I prefer to buy organic milk for lots of reasons. Clearly loads of other UK people are too, resulting in organic milk now being widely and locally available, for not a massive increase to the purse.

"Dairy cattle

Organic cows cannot be permanently housed, but must spend the majority of their lives outdoors. The cows must have appropriate bedding and adequate space when they are brought indoors during bad weather. Organic cows are fed mainly on clover-rich grass and must be allowed to graze fresh forage throughout the grazing season. Organic dairy cows are fed a minimum of 60% forage and a maximum of 40% concentrates. Whatever the balance of forage or concentrate, all their diet must be 100% Organic. Average yields in organic production are around a third less than in intensive production. Cows fed on concentrated feed may produce more milk, but it can be stressful for the cow to do so and put a strain on the animals health.

Calves

The feeding of calves must be based on natural milk, preferably maternal milk for a minimum of three months. A calf may only be weaned when it is taking adequate solid food to cater for its full nutritional requirements. Calves cannot be weaned before three months of age. Because the typical high-yielding breed of black and white cows (Holstein-Fresian) cannot be reared for high quality meat production, it is common practice for male dairy calves (who can’t produce milk in the future) to be killed at birth or exported to the continent for veal production. Soil Association standards have never allowed the sale of calves to continental style veal systems, and since 2010 our standards have specified that licensees must have a plan to end the practice of culling new born calves within five years. Options for organic farmers include raising native breeds such as a Red Poll or Shorthorn that hasbeen bred for both milk and meat, or raising male calves for organic ‘rose’ veal - a robust, mature meat, pink in colour and aged for flavour. Male calves raised for veal enjoy plenty of space and light inside suitable buildings over winter and outside at pasture for the rest of the year, a varied diet and the care of a foster cow when available."

www.soilassociation.org/whatisorganic/organicanimals/dairycattle

Well yes they do. However they will kill one and feed their family.

Each animal they eat had a natural life.

We mass produce and abuse animals.

nor comparable at all

It wasn't that long ago you had to go to a health food shop to buy tofu and vegetarians/vegans were ridiculed or at least seen to be odd/different.

BSE scare saw a massive change in our eating habits in the UK.

Bogey But what has your view on whether it is ethical to eat meat or not got to do with rip off supermarkets underpaying dairy farmers? You are vegan because its a choice you have made, I am not and will never be, that is I choice I (and the vast majority) have made. The fact is that you will never get people cutting out meat or dairy to the extent that meat production either ceases or is made more acceptable in terms of ethics.

The dairy farmers are being heavily subsidised. I do not feel sorry for them at all. Why should their livelihood depend on another animal, depend on ABUSING another animal? It should not.
They said the same about the slave owners. That it would never be abolished, that some slave owners were kind, that the people who trafficked humans had to make a living, blah blah blah. And what a way we have come since those days. It will be the same in time, re non-human animals. Veganism is exploding. More and more people are waking up to the fact that we don't need animal products to survive - and in fact, that animal products do more harm than good; that animal agriculture is devastating our planet - resources are running out, pollution is atrocious; and that animals have feelings too.

I am sure the anti-slavery crew 'alienated' those who still preferred to keep human slaves by speaking out. It was unethical. As is this.

And before anyone says it, I am NOT saying cows are equal to humans. But I do think what humans do to them is cruel, unnecessary and will be abolished in time.

BeCool, don't believe that. Organic means bog all. The cruelty is inherent.
www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/free-range-organic-meat-myth/ Whichever way you look at it, it is still atrocious what happens to these animals, merely so you can carry on eating their flesh.

Would we all be ok with eating our cats and dogs*, if they were given a nice life beforehand, but still killed at a young age? No. Most of you will be appalled at the idea. This is conditioning. We in the west have been conditioned to think that cats and dogs are lovable housemates, and cows, pigs, sheep and chickens have worthless lives that we can just take as and when we please. Why is this. Does it make you think?

*I don't have a cat or a dog, before someone asks me what I feed my cat or dog.

Organic still means:
cruelty
planet destruction
bad health for humans

ssubject, time was, B12 was found in the soil, in ample quantities, to provide plant-based eaters enough of it to live well. Due to animal agriculture (where DOES all that shit go?!), it has been eroded away and is no longer enough. We also supplement animals for our food with B12 - they don't make enough themselves either.
So I'd rather take a B12 supplement than take it second hand via a cow, and I'd rather take a supplement than have an animal die for me, having led a horrible, short life and face a horrific slaughter too.