or just naive to think DH should be more considerate?

[rubytuesday75]

Sorry if this seems like it doesn't make much sense, I can't get the words out properly...
I am currently a SAHM, back to work in March this year. I care for DD (5) and DS (10 months) and DH (40 years, not very D at the moment). DH is very unaware of the general household things that need doing and so, doesn't do them unless asked. This makes me sound like I'm nagging him, esp when he then says 'I'll do it later', later never comes and I ask again and then eventually do it anyway, having waited an hour or 2 for him to put the washing on/tidy toys/sterilise etc. In the spirit of fairness, I should say he works hard (12 hours including the commute) and is very kind and loving with us all. Yesterday morning, I slept through the alarm (got up 3 times in the night with a teething baby) and he asked me what needed doing. I told him to sterilise/turn machine on -'OK' he says. I come downstairs after he's left. He hasn't done it -ARGH. Cue bad temper, me locking myself and baby out due to rushing around and general all round misery. Today I had to get DD out to playdate - I did the usual childcare in the morning, quick shower, no time for hair/makeup etc as children to get ready - he was in the shower for 35 mins, got ready, came downstairs and did nothing towards getting children out/household stuff etc. Over Christmas, I got up early nearly every day to see to the kids, I asked for a lie in on my birthday but it didn't materialise as he slept through the baby crying and I can't lie there listening to DS scream and wait for DH to wake up.

I get that some men are not good at housework. I understand that he is tired (he is always falling asleep early, or having to have lie ins at the weekend due to tiredness). I am so resentful and angry all the time - I can't tell you how tired I am (you all know how tired I am because most of you have been there!) I play out arguments in my head and tell him that he needs to see what has to be done, not to wait for me to tell him. Don't get me wrong, if I ask him, he will (eventually) do it. But I've been waiting for him to take the broken microwave to the tip for over a month now - maybe he can't see it?! His standard phrase is 'I didn't notice/ see it/ think that it was important'. We've been together 13 years and I've had so many rows about this with him, he just apologises, is a bit better for a week and then goes back to his normal gormless self.

When I go back to work, I'll still have to do the cleaning/cooking/childcare (when they are not at childminders) as well as my full time job (teacher - so I'll have work at home as well). I'm not looking for sympathy, but I just don't know how to approach this any more. I am so sad and angry and fed up. I want to leave but can't because I couldn't do that to my daughter, she adores her father.
I'm not looking for a definitive answer (there probably isn't one), I think I just needed to rant but my heart is heavy and he's there in the other room, asleep in the chair after an afternoon at the football with his FIL.

The 'crap' I was referring to is the 'aw, bless, the menz just can't see mess' attitude.

It's not men, it's lazy feckers. And they do see mess, they'd just rather leave it for someone else to do.

Confession: I'm the lazy fecker in my relationship. But I make the effort because DH isn't and it's not fair to make him live in a shitehole.

It's funny how all these people who 'just don't hear the baby' manage to hear an alarm to get up for work or for some activity they want to do.

Why is the onus on the OP to 'be more open-minded'?

Expat I don't hear our dd, it's always Dh that gets up for her. I also miss alarm clocks, that's why I now have three and they start to go off an hour before I need to actually get up. Drives Dh mad...

Three things jumped out at me from your posts ruby:

1. "He was a student, then shared a house with other men (who cleaned and cooked etc) and then we moved in together, after 3 or 4 years together. He has always been like this. The thing I find hard to understand is that his mother made him do stuff around the house, as much as his sister, so it's not as if he is used to being waited on hand and foot."

So, in EVERY other household he's been a part of, he has had to do housework. He has known what needed to be done, known that it had to be done, and known that he had to do his share.

So when you say "DH is very unaware of the general household things that need doing and so, doesn't do them unless asked" - it jars. He IS aware that things need done, he just doesn't want to be the one to do them.

1. His job (and yours). He's been in it for about 18 months, "always said he will only stay there 2 years due to commute" but with the possible promotion you think he'll want to be there longer - "I think he really likes this one and doesn't want to leave tbh". But you've just bought a house a THREE HOUR commute away. Even though he discounted the local jobs. What were the drivers for choosing this house, where it is? Because whatever they were, surely the won't apply if he sticks with this job?

Sorry, but I think he may like his three hour commute. It's in the car rather than the train, right? I like driving. I like sitting on my own with the radio or an audiobook or a CD. I don't mind sitting in traffic that much, gives me time to think. I could be quite happy with a three hour commute. He might not see it as a bad thing. Especially as he looks to you to be choosing it over another job. Remind me again - why did you both choose to live where you bought?

"This is also annoying as I work in a really tough school and would love to leave to go somewhere more academic and less 'difficult' (if you see what I mean) but that would mean a commute and one of use needs to be close to childminder/school in case of emergency. Me again - although I love being closer to the DC so it isn't too much of a hardship"
Why are your professional needs subordinate to his? Your DD is only five, a house move to improve your job would not disrupt her schooling, so why not move elsewhere for your job? Or does it suit him that you're not to enamoured of your workplace, maybe you'll chuck it in and become a permanent SAHM?

1. "I want to leave but can't because I couldn't do that to my daughter, she adores her father."

I expect she adores you too. But her father's content to let her see you be run into the ground. And what do you think it's teaching her about relationships? That she's to come second to her future husband? At five, she sees and she absorbs. Have a care to what you present to her as normal, because she will absorb it and behave it later.

Let's shorten that sentence to the first bit - "I want to leave". Does he know that? Does he realise just how high-stakes the game he is playing actually is? Because I really do think that you should tell him - he needs to know that this time, he cannot just buck up for a week and then let it slide. So far, he's CHOSEN to leave the work to you. Just as he appears (correct me if my assumption is wrong) to have CHOSEN to live somewhere that enforces a lengthy commute on him and an unappealling workplace for you. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he's doing it unconsciously, but that doesn't mean that he's not doing it at all. By which I mean, making choices that impact very badly on YOU.

The only thing you've said in your posts that I can possibly see in defence of his behaviour is "I understand that he is tired (he is always falling asleep early, or having to have lie ins at the weekend due to tiredness)." But even then, he's being selfish. You are both tired, lie-ins should be shared. And falling asleep is a way of not doing something that needs to be done (like putting the broken microwave in the back of the car to take it to the tip). If there's no medical reason for the tiredness (suggest seeing his GP to check) then I'd suggest it's due to the soporific nature of the car drive rather than real tiredness. Sitting on my arse for too long, I get sleepy. If I instead stand up and do stuff, I wake up.

He needs to wake up, in both senses of the phrase. Think about why you moved to the house you did, and whether those reasons really stand up. And tell him that you've reached breaking point and that you are seriously thinking of leaving. He needs to know the consequences of his behaviour, and have the chance to fix it.

I don't have all the answers and DP and I have certainly struggled over fair division of chores, but I will say:

How come men are running the planet, if their tiny little brains render them incapable of noticing mess, reading job lists, and remembering promises to do chores?
Answer: They are NOT incapable, they CHOOSE not to do it. They forget because they don't think it's important. OP your DP is telling you exactly that.
They don't leap up and pick up toys because they aren't bothered about a bit of mess and would rather lie on the sofa with the iPad. Which, as long as their partner isn't about to have a nervous breakdown from overwork, is fairly reasonable. And often, because they mainly do what they want to do, they assume that you are rushing around tidying because you WANT to. And wanting it tidy = you want to tidy it in their view.

It's such a shame that "Men are from Mars,Women are from Venus",went out of fashion, because it explained all this crap. I don't believe in generalizing "men are like x, women are like y" but by saying the book is crap we didn't get rid of the "men can't do housework" attitude crap, so now we have no response to it.

OP: wake him up on your lie-in day and tell him "it's my lie-in today, you need to deal with the DC". I had to do this and now we are in a pattern.
You will have to have some level of confrontation to do this. The more you get him to do, the more he'll understand that it needs doing, it's nicer when it's done, and it takes time and energy to do it all. When he does close to nothing it's not on his radar.

You have had some excellent advice on this thread, OP. Tough situation but it does sound like he has a bit of a 'can't be arsed, never mind ruby will sort it' mentality.

I don't have much to add to the various pieces of advice about chore division but I will say one thing-why is your DH never up in the night with the DC? I am a SAHM, DH the WOHP and out of the house 12-14 hours every day (and often on conference calls late into the night as works for a US company). But he has always done his bit getting up in the night. Our general rule is I do the first wake up, possibly the second (if there is one). By third wake up I would nudge him awake and say 'can you sort DS2/DS3, I've been up twice already.' Any further wakeups (if a really bad night) we deal with alternately.

I would argue that yes he might have a long commute but you are driving your DC around! Just as dangerous for you to be exhausted at the wheel of a car as for him to be. He needs to share those wakeups as well as deal with your DC whilst you get a lie in.

Just on the "men never see the mess and don't care anyway" thing... I have to say this is bullshit...
In our house the scenario is the other way round. Poor DH despairs of me. I am horribly messy and have much lower standards, I just don't care as much and doing housework really gets me down (partly because when I was at home full time the combination of baby/toddler/housework nearly tipped me over the edge and now I associate it with that...)
HOWEVER.... I know I am crap and I know Dh hates it. So I really try and get myself plans to work on this area of our relationship. I set reminders on my phone to try and do a bit each day. I stick notices up around the place. I have been a bit rubbish lately (in my defence I have been working and finishing a PhD) but your post has reminded me that I need to step up and use my reminders etc…
I may not give a shit, but Dh does and it’s completely disrespectful of me to ignore this…

tea well I never said anything remotely along the lines of 'bless the menz don't see the mess'.

I don't think anyone's actually dispalyed that attitude on here.

But as usual you can't say anything on here about men other than that they are total cunts if they don't do everything 100% right without being accused of being a Stepford Wife.

I wish I had a pound for every time someone posts a situation like this on AIBU, and it's very familiar to me personally as well: DH tends to chip in much more as we have twins (so from the start we really had to work as a team) but the whole thing of not noticing jobs, taking ages to get ready, wanting to do big project things when there are lots of urgent jobs still to do - all very familiar.

To me there's clearly a feminist angle on this - these guys are all taking the piss a little, they aren't very well trained and they play the idiot/make out they are oblivious/think they are being hard done by when we complain, partly because they've been brought up to expect that someone else would do this stuff for them. And I know people will say not all guys are like this, and that there are women like this too, and OK fine, but I still think it's still a thing, there are a lot of men to a greater or lesser extent just delegating all the drudge work to their partners by default.

My question is, to all of you - have you ever managed to solve it, or improve it anyway? I don't mean working round the guy, I mean, changing his behaviour. Because I think their behaviour stands to be changed, really.

(For me I've found what works is not being around. My DH steps up when I'm not there and just gets on with it. And having sole responsibility for some jobs helps too. Getting him to spot random domestic jobs as they arise though... I live in hope, you know?)

Paper, show me where I said you said that. I never did. You're taking something personally that wasn't meant that way - apologies if that's how it felt to you though.

I don't believe anyone on this thread expects perfection from men any more than they do from themselves. Speaking personally, I'm just suggesting that two sentient adults should manage an equal division of household shitwork, regardless of genital type.