To hope the Pope does indeed punch his assistant...

[PausingFlatly]

... and get arrested for assault.

Seems he thinks it's clever to state that people who insult his mother should be punched.

As an example of how to treat people who insult him or religion.

And I'd thought this Pope wasn't dim. Looks like I was wrong.

"A very human response" ? Really ? I saw it as the response from the head of a very powerful religious organisation setting out his camp that religion is special so back off.

Does it matter it he was?

Sorry, my last was to slow.

Sorry LRD don't quite understand (genuinely!)

I was responding to your "it is surely appalling to compare people setting out to shoot innocent people, to the impulse to react to insults."

I was saying I wasn't sure he was making that direct comparison. I thought he was making an overall, more general point about tolerance.

He'd be on a hiding to nothing trying to silence the people (rightly) attacking the Catholic church wouldn't he? Especially with the terrible things they've been found to have covered up in the past.

I don't think he's trying to shield his church from any criticism or discourage people from insulting his religion, it's more that he's trying to calm things down for the Muslims (and Jews, who maybe now feel they're in the picture too now) who are having to live with what's happened.

The Beeb article seems to link it as well because after saying what he said it goes straight onto 'Earlier President Francois Hollande vowed to protect Muslims who, he said, were the main victims of fanaticism, along with people of other religions. Speaking at the Arab World Institute, he said anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic acts should be condemned and punished.'

Ach, whatever he says he'll get a kicking, I'm sure he knows that.

The fact that he got rid of the bulletproof glass in the popemobile speaks volumes, he's hardly going round deliberately provoking anyone is he?

And as for the comment on this thread about why are we talking about this rather than the horrific punishment being imposed on Raif Bedawi- well let's talk about it. After all, all he did was to show insufficient respect for someone's faith.

"A very human " response would be to speak up for Raif Bedawi.

slow - no, I take your point - but I think the comparison is there, even if he intended it as a general point.

To make my own vague analogy, I think it's not dissimilar to making 'general statements' at a funeral. You might claim to be making general statements about families, and hurt, and love - but everyone will interpret your comments as relating to the immediate situation, the person who has died.

It is wrong to comment on a situation like this, and then to claim you didn't know your comments would be taken as relating to that situation.

And well said phaedra.

LRD agree - absolutely do not doubt that he was referring to this specific situation - but think that he was making a general point that basically being sensitive/kind (and not deliberately provocative) is sometimes a more sensible course of action and more conducive to promoting dialogue between different faiths and religions.

Interesting thread. G'night all!

I can't understand why people are saying he didn't advocate violence. He said the he - the Pope - would punch someone if they said something specific that he didn't like. I'm sure that this is not actually true but it's an appalling thing for someone with such enormous authority to say, it is normalising a physical response to being offended. And the context in which he said it made it even worse. You don't need to pick and choose bits from the bible to point out that that's entirely inappropriate. Disappointing.

"I can't understand why people are saying he didn't advocate violence."

Because I see it as a rhetorical device, to illustrate a point. Not advice.

Another Italian speaker here. I watched the whole interview here on Italian TV and to me he was saying if someone was to for example insult your mother then your reaction would be anger. He also says that despite this instinct it is not acceptable to take this reaction to the next level and use violence and that no one should kill in the name of God. All fair points I think and he wasn't saying for one minute to go around using violence. Just that feeling it is a normal human reaction if something you love is insulted but not one that should be acted on.

The Pope is just saying that it is helpful to err on the side of respect because it does cause genuine hurt to people when their God/religion (or their mother) is insulted.

He was not condoing violence in any shape or form.

I agree with this and as someone with an Italian mother, would say that "si aspetta un pugno" is definitely a figure of speech.

However, in the same way that some people have been saying that as visual images now being beamed around the world, the Charlie Hebdo cartoons are subject to any interpretation, so is the Pope's use of that phrase and especially his gesture. So I think what he said was ill thought out and inflammatory to an extent that he did not realise. If you are speaking to lovers of soundbites, you have to be doubly careful of what you say and how you say it. I watched the air punch and though I understood his general point, also thought it might be used by extremists as further validation. Also a bit thoughtless towards the families of the Paris victims.

It was as if he was chatting to a friend and did not realise that he was on TV and not just an ordinary person but THE POPE and that his pronouncements on any subject will make news. Quite childlike and naive in a way.

I am late to this thread and have read a Spanish news report of what he said - which I thought put a different slant on things, but when I read the whole article I think Bananagio has it. The way I read it he is also saying you shouldn't be doing things, like insulting someone's faith, just to be deliberately provocative.

Fwiw he's Argentinian and a native Spanish speaker. When I was learning Spanish we were taught that to insult a Spanish person's mother was one of the worst things you could do. I knew someone who got thumped by a guy when he had insulted his mother during an argument (the Spanish language is pretty graphic in insults too). I wonder if that's why the Pope used that example/analogy, because it was a cultural thing that made sense to him?

But he's right. Sometimes people DO react violently when they are deeply offended. Of course they ought not to - sticks and stones, and all that - but that's in an ideal world and the world is far from that.

Also in this ideal world people would have respect for others and would not say or do things that cause offence.

It would be extremely rude and hurtful of me to say to you "your child is too fat - you are a bad parent". Damn right I would get a response to that, and if I got a smack in the mouth you would be wrong, but so would I to have said it in the first place, even it is TRUE.

No-one is condoning violence, least of all the Pope. But it happens in this real world and we should be prepared for consequences if people say and do whatever they want to.

*Thu 15-Jan-15 23:14:34

omg i want to punch the woman on your behalf ya so nbu*

From another thread (AIBU Medium at work and my dead DH - see what I mean? (I deleted the poster's name}

I can think of a few people I'd love to punch. Doesn't mean I would though.

As an adult if someone insulted my mum I'd think that person had a problem.
Different when I was a kid of course. What's more I would not like to be patronised as an adult by people feeling they daren't take the piss out of my cherished beliefs for fear of my lashing out. I just don't get that at all; I would judge the "troublemaker" as it were after a check to see if what they are saying might not have a bit of truth in it.

I don't think the Pope warning against criticism of religious institutions should have surprised me though! Sono Galileo!

I think the Daily Mash pretty much nailed it with this piece :

“Freedom of speech is absolutely inviolable when it comes to priests spreading the news of the Lord. For anyone else, not so much.

“Turning the other cheek is one of those things Christ said but, when you read between the lines, didn’t really mean.

“You say anything about the Holy Trinity – you breathe one disrespectful word about the Blessed Virgin – and I put you in the ground, my friend.

Agree with wowfudge, Italian culture is the same as Spanish in this sense, insulting mothers is pretty full on and the fact that so many swear words or phrases are based around this highlights that. So I think there is a cultural context that needs to be taken into account. I also think that is not anti freedom of speech to say we should be respectful of others and sometimes think about what we say before we say it. And being angry when someone insults something you love is surely human nature and understandable? It's what you do with that anger that is the issue. which is what I understand the Pope to be saying.

Daily Mash has it!

I wonder what he'd do and say if Life of Brian were only released now, instead of 30 odd years ago.

It was banned by quite a few Councils round the country, and Cleese and Palin(?) had a tv discussion with the awful Muggeridge about it.

No one got shot though.

Considering that this is the pope that has started his papacy by sacking a lot of people, from the head of the guards, to bishops living in luxury (google Pope Francis sack and you will find a great deal of info), that has launched investigations into the dealings of the Vatican bank and sack a large chunk of the bankers, has sacked the Vatican financial wathdog, is proactive regards to dealing with pedofiles within the church, opening up for acceptance of gay people and does not want to dismiss gay marriage, changing the stance on divorce, scolds the rich during his visit to Brazil, blasts his own bishops, for "living hypocritical lives and suffering from spiritual Alzheimer's instead of being men of God"
He also condemns religious violence www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30601662. His full Christmas message can be read here: uk.businessinsider.com/pope-francis-has-a-somber-message-for-the-world-on-christmas-2014-12

I think it would be wise to show some perspective and not jump to conclusions. A lot can be said about the Catholic church, but this is a pope who wants to make changes. Long may he remain in his position!

Maybe this is an olive branch and a message of understanding, he too would feel insulted if somebody caricatured and his mother or his spiritual Mother, while appealing for calm.

I am not a Catholic (dh and my dc are), I am brought up Lutheran, but I have great respect for this pope and what he is trying to achieve.

I have had a lot of respect for Pope Francis and I hope he continues to reform. It was an interesting response though and I do think it's worth pointing out that to put up religion as beyond ridicule is a concern. Well it concerns me! And I don't feel it's disrespectful to all of Pope Francis's efforts to say so.