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AIBU?

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Original poster

To hope the Pope does indeed punch his assistant...

211 replies

PausingFlatly · 15/01/2015 19:34

... and get arrested for assault.

Seems he thinks it's clever to state that people who insult his mother should be punched.

As an example of how to treat people who insult him or religion.

And I'd thought this Pope wasn't dim. Looks like I was wrong.

OP posts:
funnyossity · 15/01/2015 22:23

His message was not entirely tolerant. He said we are to treat religions with respect. I feel that not being allowed to mock a religion is intolerant in itself.

AgentZigzag · 15/01/2015 22:29

I would expect it was meant in a similar way to a theatrical shaking of his fist OP.

I've always thought other Popes have be pretty bland and haven't noticed them as such, but he seems very engaging, and the specific things you hear about him on the news etc do make him sound a very different type of person to who's normally in office (if that's the right word).

Celticlass2 · 15/01/2015 22:33

I thought it was very funny. I quite like him. Bland he aintSmile

BackOnlyBriefly · 15/01/2015 22:33

If a friend said what he said on the spur of the moment I'd not take it too seriously, but he was speaking for the Catholic church on the subject of people using violence against someone who offended them

And he said he would use violence too.

I don't see any other way to take that.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/01/2015 22:40

Sorry, am I missing something?!

Why on earth does it make a difference how we translate it?

The root of the issue is, he said that you might expect violence if you provoke people.

In this context, that is an appalling and disgusting thing to say.

Making a joke of it with a non-literal analogy like that seems to me to compound the enormity, but my Italian is basic, so I don't really know. I do know it's not the important issue, though.

Slowcommotion · 15/01/2015 22:42

I think he was trying to illustrate and get everyone to imagine how people feel when someone very close to them is insulted. He wasn't justifying violence!

MuttersDarkly · 15/01/2015 22:46

Found the video, It's blocking for me so can't watch the whole thing, but got to just under the first minute and half ish.

I speak Italian pretty well, (2 decades living here in Italy, Italian husband/child/zero English speaking mates, not perfect, but good enough to check out the translation and compare to the original for any glaring attempts to mislead)

I can't see anything wrong ,or attempting to mislead in the subtitles on the one I saw (DM) up to the point I was able to watch it.

I am used to people getting a very different tone from my intended one when I speak Italian. It's my second language. Perhaps the lack of nuance was due to complex structures making shading too hard to achieve without people going cross eyed with confusion. It is possible that being an L2 speaker of a Italian made it come out as more forthright than was intended. Maybe the rest of the vid places that bit in a different light.

I hope so anyway.

Because as an atheist in sea of Catholics, even in my own home, a firm position of "you can't joke about religion/faith", "it's provocative" in conjunction with him saying punching as a response to a feeling of being insulted is normal.... gives me the Heebie Geebies.

I am much happier with "you can take the piss out of institutions and power structures, including those of a religious flavour" full stop.

We tried the "no piss taking out of religion allowed" in the past.

Just personal opinion, but I don't feel that worked out too well.

BigOrgRel has a track record for silencing the people who would reduce their power and income through criticism and mocking, which I don't think should be ignored. Certainly I don't think we should open the door to a return of its known intolerance for unbelievers and critics in the name of respect.

AuntieStella · 15/01/2015 22:48

Accuracy of translation matters enormously. It is less clear than it should be whether it was rhetorical device, foreign idiom or literal statement.

The Papal formal statement was issued last week shortly after the atria is, but if you don't read the Catholic Herald or similar then you probably won't have seen it as it didn't get much mainstream coverage then.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/01/2015 22:49

But ... surely, trying to illustrate how people feel when someone they love is insulted, is a terrible reaction to these events, slow?

No decent person I have ever met, has thought, right, someone insulted a person I love, so I will go and kill them - and, as I go, I will kill everyone in my way, even if they are nothing to do with that person.

It is fundamentally wrong to normalize that feeling and that action.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/01/2015 22:50

How can it possibly matter whether it was a rhetorical device, an idiom or a statement?! Confused

I do speak basic Italian, btw. I just don't follow how any of those options would make it acceptable.

BackOnlyBriefly · 15/01/2015 22:53

This translation thing is starting to sound familiar. As in "ok the bible does say kill all gay people, but it really meant 'give them a hug'.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/01/2015 22:54

I'd snigger, but it's not funny.

Slowcommotion · 15/01/2015 22:59

LRD he was illustrating how people feel when someone close to them is insulted as part of an overall message of tolerance. He was simply saying that it is perhaps better to try and treat people with respect rather than deliberately provoke.

The Pope's stance is always, and ever-was, and always will be, completely anti-violence. To think otherwise is to completely misunderstand his entire message.

Yes of course free speech is a fundamental democratic tenet which must be protected. But there are limits. Even free and democratic countries do not have complete freedom of speech do they? We have defamation and slander laws, we have laws combatting racist comments. The Pope is just saying that it is helpful to err on the side of respect because it does cause genuine hurt to people when their God/religion (or their mother) is insulted.

He was not condoing violence in any shape or form.

PhaedraIsMyName · 15/01/2015 22:59

He seems to be mistaking respect for the right to follow a faith with respect for that faith. The 2 are different. I don't respect any faith which seeks to discriminate against gay people.

The comment about punching is beyond stupid. I know it was meant to be a joke but still stupid.

Celticlass2 · 15/01/2015 23:05

Slowcommotion I agree. Of course he was not advocating voilence. I thought what he said was very human actually.
Some of you on here must be exhausted with all the overthinking Smile

Puzzledandpissedoff · 15/01/2015 23:07

Yet another reason why religion and public policy making should never meet ...

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/01/2015 23:07

slow, I think you've missed my point!

I understood what he was saying.

It was a revolting thing to say in the context. People died. It is a time for respect, not a time to make cheap comparisons.

No one seriously imagines he's advocating violence, surely? They just think it is incredibly insensitive.

PhaedraIsMyName · 15/01/2015 23:10

CelticLass no over-thinking. Pope claims , not surprisingly, special privileges for religion.

I've never yet heard a convincing argument why this should be the case and didn't hear one today.

BackOnlyBriefly · 15/01/2015 23:11

He was simply saying that it is perhaps better to try and treat people with respect rather than deliberately provoke. as they might shoot you if you do?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/01/2015 23:11

celtic - oh, come on!

The level of overthinking that has gone into your assumption that people think he is advocating violence - and the absurd overthinking that's gone into this splitting hairs over translation - is mind-boggling.

Do you not think the basic comment - leaving aside all your super-subtle concerns about minor issues - was offensive?

Slowcommotion · 15/01/2015 23:12

I disagree that he was being disrespectful LRD I don't think he was joking either. I think he was making a simple statement emphasising our humanity and failings.

AgentZigZag said it better than I can;

"I took what he said as meaning that even he, as the head of the Catholic church, would be fucked off if his mate was swearing about his Mum, so he can understand why others might get offended when they hear/see things they find outrageous."

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/01/2015 23:14

Fair enough, slow. I should make clear I don't think he was joking either - but that's the only way to interpret these bizarre claims that he was mistranslated, so far as I can see.

But, well ... he was misguided, wasn't he? Even if he intended to be respectful, it is surely appalling to compare people setting out to shoot innocent people, to the impulse to react to insults.

They're not at all the same. It's a horrible comparison - the comparison itself is the awful thing, not the words in which he made it.

No normal person is so insulted by a rude comment (about their mum, about God, whatever), that they murder innocents.

BackOnlyBriefly · 15/01/2015 23:19

FWIW I don't think he wants people getting shot over religion, but he was saying that being disrespectful of religion isn't allowed and it's understandable if people get violent when it happens.

If he said it down the pub - that's fine. But in this context a terrible thing to say.

Celticlass2 · 15/01/2015 23:19

Yes commotion That's it in a nutshell. A very human response. Crikey some drama lamas on here. Looking for stuff to be offended about.
As I say it must be exhausting.

Slowcommotion · 15/01/2015 23:22

Was he making that direct comparison though LRD (must go back and read verbatim report)? I (perhaps mistakenly) took it to mean that publishing yet another Charlie Hebdo magazine with a provocative image on the front was less than helpful. I could be wrong though!

Just interpreted it as such as it followed report sayng...

"Speaking to journalists flying with him to the Philippines, Pope Francis said last week's attacks were an "aberration", and such horrific violence in God's name could not be justified."