To think that Charlie Hebdo...

[CruelButTrue]

...would have been more like this had it been published in Britain rather than France?

www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/what-if-icharlie-hebdo-i-had-been-published-in-britain/16443#.VLLmGXv26Sq

InAnithervisit - the word islamophobic is, imo, a stupid, cretinous word which was invented to simply silence debate and quash the opinions of anybody who dare question islam and its teachings. It's a ridiculous social construct which, IME, generally says much more about the people using it than those whom they are using it to describe.

Carried over from another thread, as I think it is just as relevant here, especially re: the word 'Islamophobe'.

A few points just to elaborate though -

• This applies to any religious ideology that some feel oppressed by (not just Islam). I also have my own experience with the sharp end of religion and this is not an exercise in theory for me.

• I have no doubt that there are many happy, practising Muslims who love and adore their religion. However, it cannot be denied that there are those who are oppressed by the same religious ideology.

• I believe the answer is to challenge the religion, the ideology, the influential suprastructure itself. Be tolerant and kind toward the individual followers (as we should be to all human beings).

• I truly believe that the majority of Muslims are good, peaceful people, just as I believe most of humanity is. But Islam (the ideology) has a lot to answer for, as do many religions IMO, and cannot, must not be above scrutiny.

Courtesy of a Guardian Commentator

Dictionary definition:

ISLAMOPHOBE: Someone who believes that human rights are universal and that exceptions should not be made to allow a certain religion to continue to oppress women, homosexuals and other religious minorities

Cruickshank,

Fortunately enough, French haven't waited for you to demonstrate against their governments, otherwise they would still be ruled by a catholic monarchy. Actually, they would take any opportunity to do so, even sometimes in the most ludicrous way, like with the "Red Hats' rebellion last year when people demonstrated because " they were not happy".

Those last demonstrations weren't a show-off, though. We did it because we were appalled about what happened and we wanted to show that united -atheists, Muslism, Jewish and Christian- we musn't fear to stand up for our values which, indeed, include free speech and right to mock whatsoever form of dogma -could it be a religious or a political one.

As for seeing reality "from a western point of view", I did demonstrate in London in 2002 against war in Iraq -what would be your way of showing your sympathy for my country today?

"we were appalled by -pardon my english.

Hurrah Myosotis !
Contente de te lire . Je suis de tout cœur avec toi dans ce que tu dis sur France et Charlie.

I disagree with ParisBerlin that France is more racist than the UK.France is a republican country . One of it's fundamental principals is that it is secular. I believe the secular nature of France is a very important element to understanding France.

I enjoyed reading Caffe's post but I didn't agree with the lumping together and defining of all muslims under one type - having one type of response.

But, isn't it lovely to be able to express ourselves freely in words without fearing for our lives? If I could I'd prefer to draw it, but I've given that up and enjoy looking at those who are ( were ) much better han me. Should I follow with a sad or happy smile ? I'll decide

So, Caffe , you're free to hold your opinions and even to convince others if you feel the need to. In the same way, muslims are free to do the same. Some muslims would convince us that their religion is about peace.

But, when the chips are down, in a democracy, we all have to muddle along together and that is why France sticks to being secular and allows and promotes freedom of expression as long as it doesn't go against the law.

(...la France )

Thanks Saymwa,

Actually I felt I needeed to express myself after having read your 1rst message ;-)

Secularism (laïcité) is indeed one of the cornerstone on which modern french nation had been built : sometimes, it can be see as great, sometimes it can be seen as a stubborn approach to religions but somehow, it has more or less worked so far.

It is not by no standart the one and only true possible approach to religion but to my mind, one needs to understand and respect the choices of the country he lives in and belong to. As a non-believer, it sometimes irks me to hear my kid praising God at school for numerous occasions such as Harvest Festival or Nativity. I'm not used of that as I was educated in a french Republican school. But I knew CoE was the official religion in UK and wether I like it or not, that's part of the game if you choose to make your child benefit from the english educational system. Therefore, I musn't complaint if the values he's taught at school don't always meet mine because I have to accept they are part of the country which welcomed me and my family.

I'm finding the nit-picking of France because it's not perfect in bloody poor taste, frankly. I am offended by it, but knock yourselves out (metaphorically, this is not an invitation to violence), I am perfectly free to think you're ignorant, and a bit stupid.
I've just got back from the local meeting about the events that happened. I our quartier, our streets. This is my local neighbourhood; my son was on his way back from an outing to the cinema, and got told to run by one of the three police first on scene (we think). I walk past that bullet hole they keep showing twice a bloody day. My friend K went to pick up her daughter for lunch at the end of the half day. At 11h 30.
Today our Assemblée Nationale sang the Marseillaise for the first time since 11 Novembre 1918.
I marched un Sunday; it was amazing.

Myosotisbleu quite a lot of us who live here resent our kids having to praise God at school. I wish we were properly secular here in the UK. Despite appearances Christianity is a minority belief here, but because of how things use to be retains a fair bit of power.

Strangelookingparasite ,

I was moved to read that you, your family and friends were so close to these events. I hope that you are able to rest and take care of yourselves now. Sending hugs and plenty of chocolate (difficult to know what might help ).

Can I reassure you that not everyone is nit-picking France on this thread? But, for those who are, why not just continue to argue your own points ?

Isn't that what Charlie Hebdo encourages people to do ? And tomorrow , when the next Charlie comes out, I presume there'll be plenty of discussions to have.

In the meantime , take care and sleep well.

Myosotis , not easy - C of E schools whilst religion is not allowed to be taught in French schools. But I'm impressed by your desire to integrate into UK culture and I wish you all the best.

BackOnlyBriefly and Saymwa,

Although it seems a bit odd to me to hear praise God in C of E school, I may not resent it so strongly as your schools have the pragmatism to speak to kids about ALL religions, even though CoE remains the "official" one.

For instance, my son has recently learned why Muslims pray 5 times a day. Knowledge of religion as an HISTORICAL fact (and not a belief) is really interesting to my mind and funnily enough, I think we could take exemple on the english educational system on that matters as it may help our different communities to understand each other in France.

Myosotisbleu, We have huge rows over the religion in school thing here. I am in favour of teaching about other religions just like we teach geography and history. As you say these are facts and kids are going to need to understand what people are doing.

On the other hand we have some schools (hopefully a minority) telling the kids "Jesus is the only god - ignore that barbarian Mohammed" and down the road "Allah is great - Christians and Jews are infidels".

The other thing is the actual 'act of worship' each day which many of us oppose on principle. Again most schools it's just a token, but other's it's more like a full church/mosque/synagogue service.

I must be very Lucky then, because my son is going to a very open_minded school. :-)

CaffeLatte, I do sometimes wish I lived in your world, when I read all the Muslim-smearing bigoted hate speech that people like you come out with. Sure, it can't be a happy place to be, but it's much simpler than reality.

I'm sure it would be better all round if this were a straight fight between the brave, valiant Western nations and the backwards, violent Muslims. However, unfortunately it isn't quite so simple.

First off, there are always going to be limits on free speech. I don't think Charlie Hebdo would, for instance, get away with publishing a cartoon satirising the holocaust. Or one poking fun at the victims of the 2001 attacks in the US. Not that I think they should, but just pointing out that there is plenty of censorship, including self-censorship, going on in our 'liberal democracies', despite all of the crap about defending to the death everybody's right to say something (which, incidentally, I am fucking sick of seeing on my fucking facebook feed - Voltaire didn't even say it anyway, but I digress).

So this isn't about 'free speech' - there's no such thing, in the absolute - it is culturally relative, and the culture of France is such that the suffering of Muslims - of women who have been raped and victims of atrocities - are fair game for a bit of 'robust' political lampooning. Maybe you think that's fine. But I bet you any money you like you wouldn't think it fine to laugh along with jokes about the victims of the terrorist attack in London. So what the marchers and the 'je suis charlie' chumps are standing up for is for white French people to say things that other white French people find funny. It isn't for anyone anywhere in the world to say whatever they want.

Second, there's the argument that it's about democracy and the contrast between the Muslim countries and our more enlightened West. Which is pretty fucking rich. Does no-one see the irony of the US leader, head of a country that brought us Guantanamo and whose efforts to wage war on an abstract noun have seen more than 1000 people killed in drone attacks since he came into power, joining a 'peace and freedom' march? Or of Cameron, supporter of the Iraq war which killed 100s of thousands of people, linking arms in solidarity? Or indeed the head of Israel, after this summer's wholesale slaughter of civilians? If that's what represents democracy, then we really are fucked. Or maybe, just maybe, we aren't quite as fine and dandy as we like to think we are. Which is fine, but don't go on then prating over and over about how we're so much better than, say, the Saudis.

Which brings me on to my last point, which is that given there are weaknesses within our western political systems, given that we still have to keep on fighting for democracy because we haven't got there yet, this isn't about a 'clash of civilisations' or any of the other rhetoric heaped on this incident over the last week or so - it's just about a bunch of disaffected, marginalised people goin postal with guns. The kind of thing that happens in US high schools on a regular basis. But the kids in the US are white, so they can't be made out to be the enemy.

I sometimes wish i lived in your world cruik where you can just dismiss all you disagree with as bigots. Fortunately, most people can see through this same old, rather tired tactic. It's wearing a bit thin tbh.

Cruikshank

Hear hear !

I must apologise to anyone that read my post as French bashing . Really not what you need in a sad week. I have however observed blatant racism against Muslims or rather 'les arabes' during my time living in France . And this rightly or wrongly has informed my thinking around some of the drivers behind this sad event.

What Cruikshank said is so so true about self censorship . There are many many unpalatable aspects of Islam . But I still don't see cartoons mocking it as 'ok' and I Don't think I ever will . And given that no UK publications run them either I do lot think I am alone

We are better than the Saudis though ! Can't have that one ??

1000 people killed in drone attacks and they were all innocent people right?

I don't even like the business of using drones, but there was a reason for them.

Cruickshank,

The marchers "chumps" as you nicely put it didn't stand up for the right for white people to say things that other white french people find funny. They demonstrated because some fanatic killed our people whose happened to be either either atheists, jews, muslims or christian... But none of this matters actually : they were our fellowmen, whatever may have been their belief, they were French citizen from different cultural background living in harmony in a free country and they had been killed because of that very reason.
MY PEOPLE.

And as you mention again war in Irak but have failed to answer my 1rst question, I ask you once more : I did demonstrate in London in 2002 against war in Iraq -what would be your way of showing your sympathy for my country today?

Fromparistoberlin, the reason no UK publications chose to run the cartoons was not because they didnt want to, it was because they were scared of being blown up. I'd have thought that much was rather obvious.

Britain has a different mindset to the French and a different sense of humour. If a UK person wants to see the offensive cartoons that "provoked" these terrorists then the internet makes it very easy. I think that newspapers avoided printing the cartoons as it was not necessary. There have been British drawn cartoons in the press that are more suited to British taste.

The problem is a handful terrorists who want to impose THEIR version of Islam on the rest of the world. Freedom of expression and relgious belief is worth standing up for. Also France is a democracy and does not allow people to take the law into their own hands.

I cannot understand how anyone can attempt to justify the actions of those terrorists. None of those seventeen people deserved to die. It does not matter if a piece of paper offends you, its no excuse for murder.

Obviously yes the 'blowing up' risk is fairly significant one ! But I think we have a different culture here , we take the piss of different things basically . The issue is approached differently . And we are far less secular which makes a massive difference . France is vehemently against the veil. We are not . And so on .....

ReallyTired, of course there is no excuse for murder. Just that I can understand why Muslims wouldn't want to say 'Je Suis Charlie' and that the people who do say it should maybe examine their reasons for doing so. Plus I am getting pissed off at all of this rhetoric about how Muslims can't live in democratic countries etc - the problem is marginalised groups, groups that the police and justice system discriminate against, groups that are told they can't wear what clothes they want to, groups who are beaten up by thugs for being the race they are when said thugs have voices in mainstream media and political life supporting them, within these much-vaunted 'democractic' countries. These are all the influences that are coming into play here. It just really isn't a simple question of free speech and if you don't agree with it then you're against freedom - that is a dangerous road to go down.