AIBU to think some parents have low expectations of their DC?

[Prole]

18 year olds who shouldn't go abroad. 11 year olds who shouldn't cook. 16 year olds who shouldn't take a train on their own...

I was cooking my own dinner, shopping, going to the launderette, getting the bus to school etc etc from age 8. I didn't kill myself or burn anything down. This was 70s South London with a very disinterested single parent so independence was necessary. I moved out at 16 - made some youthful mistakes but dealt with the consequence myself.

Has something changed in the world? If so - what and why?

Bowchick - I also saw and experienced the sharp end of some pretty grim things but ain't going any further on that one. Do you feel there's any lasting damage or issues from what you saw?

I perhaps learnt the lesson that people/the world can be horrible earlier than some but it's a lesson we all learn sometime?

DixieNormas My mum sorted out my uni application 25 years ago. She even forged my signature on it.

It would have taken too long to send it snailmail (email?, mobile? never heard of them) to her adventuous 18 year old daughter who was god knows where in the Australian outback, sending back a fortnightly postcard

I don't think the problem of today's youth is that they were looked after properly when they were aged 8, 9, or 10. I think it's somewhere after that that the rot sets in.

Maybe it's that their parents have decided their one function in life is to get good exam results and to that end the parents will bend over backwards to ensure they never have to do anything around the house but their homework?

Or maybe life is a lot more exciting at home, or there are more ways to let a day go by without noticing it now that we have entertainment like Xbox or Netflix or smartphones? Back when I was growing up, home was pretty boring and the thought of staying there forever or even staying indoors for more than a few hours a day would have appalled me. I had books, Lego and Meccano, the TV had RTE, then RTE2, BBC1 and BBC2, ITV and then Channel 4. We could also get BBC Cymru on the east coast of Ireland. Hot stuff on the box... I loved Lego and all the rest of it, and loved to read, and I watched a huge amount of TV. But as a teen, fun meant getting out. I don't think today's teens have to leave home to have a social life.

DD2 has a friend doing medicine who has taken a commuter train twice in her entire life (she is 19).

I think you need to start children on household chores at 8, certainly before 13, if they are ever to learn and so that contributing at home will become a habit.

I think many of the young adults suffer from the lack of self esteem that they could gain from learning how to actually work and accomplish necessary tasks that are tedious or repetitive (household chores in other words). I think when people get to age 21 and know deep down that they need mum to keep their lives ticking over they do not feel good about themselves.

...hence the loudly expressed opinion that people who work are mugs. They have encountered reality for the first time, and they do not feel up to participating in it. I think for some their first exposure to the world of work, accountability and responsibility causes a crisis.

When I was 13/14 I was getting the train from swansea to cardiff then cardiff to swansea every weekend, approx one hour train journey then i'd get a taxi either to the opposite side of cardiff or the opposite side of swansea, another 20-40 minutes. I never found it difficult. I also didn't have a mobile phone until 17 and that was funded by myself. I cooked dinner once or twice a week for the family and could manage the weekly shop alone (My mother had sciatica so found it too difficult to walk around the shops some weeks). I'm coming up to 20 now so can't really use the "In my day.." phrase though :')

In my 70s childhood on a housing estate 1 7 year old was killed playing chicken on the nearby road. The following summer a 9 year had life changing injuries doing the same thing. Various broken bones from playing unsupervised on building sites. I agree that kids should be capable of doing age appropriate stuff but I say not leaving 7 year olds unsupervised for 6 hours every day is an improvement.

I didn't cook, clean or go to the laundrette as a child. My mother did everything for us. She organised my University application and drove me for my interview (she waited in the car). I went to university and managed fine.

I do most things for my boys ds1 (19) has some special needs so I organised his college application for him but he now goes independently on the bus but I have phoned a couple of times to sort things out for him. Ds2 (17) organises his own life. He's only been on a train once (when he was 4) and rarely on a bus but it is not required. He can cook basic food for himself if required. Ds3 is 8 and will walk to and from school alone once the days get longer. I don't expect them to cook or clean, except their own rooms. The older ones will shop for me and the will all do any fetching carrying or lifting things for me. I am certain they will grow up to be completely independent I just feel childhood is so short that it should be enjoyed to the full.

I went with dd2 to uni open days she wanted me to go with her it isn't a big deal I don't think

It's a difficult issue. There is a bit too much paranoid in western countries, but then in Japan (where I live), Japanese people are really really naive about stranger danger. I am trying to tread a middle path. I wouldn't be comfortable allowing my daughter to play completely unsupervised in the local park at age 6 etc. the way people here do.

What is it you do Prole?

I find the "they're just kids, let them be kids" attitude very strange, why does it apply to preparing food or cleaning up, but not brushing teeth, or wiping bums, or school homework.

The freedom outside the house is just different, more kids were killed on the roads 20 or 40 years ago but then more people died full stop, perhaps that's the reason. You now have less chance of dying, so people are more paranoid of the ones they can directly control. But of course the pedestrian deaths are not at 6, they at 12 and 13, and yes a 6yr old may not have the experience to judge speeds, but of course neither will a 12 year old have the skills if they never have to judge them.

Skills come from practice, and habits come from repetition, starting them early helps, a gradual process is so much better than a big bang, and anyway, kids have loads of time to do stuff. You're still letting them be kids, you're not sending them out to work, they'll spend most of their time playing and learning. Just some of that stuff they're learning is actually important for when they're adults.

I walked home from school aged 8, it was only a mile and I walked with my nine year old brother.

I cooked full dinners, and got my cooking badge etc (so I know I could cook a full roast on my own aged 9) I could fry an egg to go in a sandwich, or a pancake for breakfast at an earlier age, certainly cakes I can't remember when I started cooking them...
If I wanted to see a friend on the other side of town I'd walk there or ride a bike there on my own.

Aged 12 I would ride my bike for miles, to visit friends who lived in villages outside the town where I lived.

The first time I went overseas without my parents I was aged 14,

I went on busses to town ten or twenty miles away from ages 15 or 16, but I akso had a job aged 16 I was a cleaner.

I went to London for the first time aged 17 that was the first time I'd been in a train. By that time i'd had a passport and been overseas without my parents 3 times, my brother and I had our grown family holidays and stayed at home.

The first time I went to a festival I was 17. I bought tickets with money that I earned.

Aged 18 I still needed my dad to drive me to iniversity interviews and open days, but I went off to university having been allowed and learnt a lot of responsibility...

What I'm really saying is I was responsible enough to be trusted to do these things.
I was motivated enough to find a job and earn my own money to do these things.
I lived in a place where I could do those things. Not some big city where I could just disappear, or a place with loads of traffic.

Even though it wasn't "all that long ago", it was a different time.

There is no set order that you should or shouldn't do things, (for example I was roaming around Paris with two friends before I'd travelled on a train)

Even after I'd done all these things my parents told me that they didn't trust me to drive, and refused to offer any help with lessons or would try to talk me out of the idea even when I was still in university.
Because whilst I was responsible enough to go overseas on exchange trips, responsible enough to go out in the morning and be back before the street lights came on, responsible enough to go on holiday with just myself and my girlfriend... They thought I'd crash! (And they were probably right!)

Most parents know their kids.
Kids will kick up a fuss and complain (like I did about wanting a motorbike, and wanting a car.)

I didn't believe them at the time that I'd crash my car, when I did learn to drive I of course had the odd scrap.

I'm now o'd enough to realise they were right. Had I been allowed to do the things that they prevented me doing, (like driving) I probably wouldn't be around to write this...

they seem incredibly cushioned from the real world. I have even seen some in the launderette here when my machine broke down, I had to stifle my giggles at their confused little faces as they surveyed the machines, the pound slots etc

When my DC leave home it will be, I hope, with the gumption to ask someone to show them any further skills they require and the grace and manners not to "giggle" patronisingly at somebody who lacks that skill.

Prole - if an eight year old today had the childhood you experienced Social Services would categorise it as child neglect and would intervene.

Me too, FredFred. Kids actually need to have responsibility -- not all at once but gradually. Parents who have the attitude that their children should remain stuck at the point of childhood where they are not really capable of any sustained effort or self discipline are imo neglecting their children, but in a far less obvious way than those whose children are going hungry or having to shoulder more than their fair share of responsibility for siblings or cooking or whatever.

Betty - no Social services would not intervene because an 8-year old was cooking, going to the launderette, shopping and using public transport. Why is it that people feel they are an expert on what social services "categorise" as neglect on here?

I was quite restricted as a child and teen (first went into town at 14, first caught a train or stayed at home alone overnight at 18 etc) but expectations of me were very high. I don't think my family ever considered the possibility of me not doing A levels, uni, professional job etc. and supervising me a lot was to stop me going off the rails and make sure I mixed with good influences, studied enough etc. A lot of the kids who were allowed to wander round unsupervised had far less expected of them. Surely a happy middle ground is best. Over supervision leads to being unable to manage your own life and learning the hard way, under supervision is equally bad. Gradually increased freedom according to age and aptitude is what I'm trying for with my DC.