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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be worried about the Ched Evans threads on here

836 replies

corkysgran · 08/01/2015 06:33

Sorry but this does seem like a witchunt to me. Many of the posters (who have signed the petition) obviously have little knowledge of the case. At one point a poster said Sports Direct would withdraw sponsorship if Evans was NOT signed and immediately others were vowing to boycott. Laughable and shows the level of thought before clicking. Online justice and the court of public opinion, not for me. As for expecting football, an industry corrupt from the very top (Sepp Blatter) and inherently sexist, to show any moral stance, get real.

OP posts:
FreudiansSlipper · 08/01/2015 11:26

Fantastic news Smile

meditrina · 08/01/2015 11:28

The SKY report is based on "sources" and totally lacking in detail.

Let's wait and see.

JohnFarleysRuskin · 08/01/2015 11:29

Discussion on This Morning. Gawd.

EveDallasRetd · 08/01/2015 11:30

Being reported by Ch4 now as well.

JohnFarleysRuskin · 08/01/2015 11:31

People are picking on poor old Ched. It's disscussting.

SlowlorisIncognito · 08/01/2015 11:33

There is a petition addressed to the FA and the PFA- www.change.org/p/fa-pfa-take-a-stand-against-violence-against-women-girls-introduce-automatic-sanctions-against-players-who-commit-these-crimes

I agree all footballers convicted of certain crimes should not be allowed to play professionally again, because like it or not, they are role models. I was also outraged when Luke McCormick was able to return to football after killing two boys. The worst thing is that he has now been made captain of Plymouth Argyle.

Although, you know what, if this is a witchhunt, I don't care. He's an unrepentant rapist, and tbh, he has probably behaved in similar ways plenty of times before. I think a lot of men think this is an acceptable way to behave. If this "witchhunt" makes a few young men think twice before having sex with girls who are too drunk to consent (i.e. before raping someone) then that's a good thing. If men begin to realise there are real consequences to raping someone, even if you don't do it in a dark alley with a knife, that is a good thing. They might still think it's ok, and think CE is in the right, but if it makes them think twice, that makes the world safer for women and girls.

I think there is so much anger towards this because finally we are taking a proper stand against rape culture in our society- just like when some places refused to play blurred lines and there was outrage.

The person who's life has been ruined is the victim, not Ched Evans. He made a choice, and now he has to live with the consequences.

meditrina · 08/01/2015 11:33

There's been so much leaking in the past few days, I hope the club makes an authoritative stamens soon.

slug · 08/01/2015 11:34

Reallly corky's gran? What I see is a man who has served only half of his very short sentence and is now being assisted into a position of prominence and wealth while his victim is currently serving a life sentence hounded from her home and her life.

I see no cognitive dissidence in refusing to support those who support an unrepentant rapist.

MonstrousRatbag · 08/01/2015 11:37

I'm very interested in how a lot of people who disagree with the petitions etc, including this OP, use language like 'witchhunt', 'frenzy' and 'froth of outrage'. Lots of coded language (or in Liddle's case, explicit language) about irrational feminist harridans.

Plenty of people on the anti-signing side are putting forward arguments I don't actually agree with, but I don't see any kind of frenzy. I do see a lot of men and women who simply refuse to go along with the conventional attitude towards sexual violence and coercion (bizarrely tolerant) and its victims (dismissive or blaming) and a lot of people who see that chance as threatening.

I notice Liddle also says "There are grave doubts about his conviction", which as far as I can tell, there really really aren't. Unless you are in the camp, along with CE, that says sex with a sleeping or unconscious woman unable to consent is not rape.

My own view is that there can't be a hard and fast rule about footballer convicted of serious offences returning to the game. I don't think rapists can never be rehabilitated and shouldn't be given the chance (though given many of them are serial offenders I'm sceptical about it).

I do think that, because Ched Evans is, via the chedevans.com website and the actions of relatives and fans, associated with ongoing aggression towards his victim, he's undeserving of a continued football career.

And yes, football is different. It will give CE celebrity (a very potent advantage in modern society) and the chance to be lauded as a hero and seen as a representative of a community.

VivVivacious · 08/01/2015 11:40

CorkysGran He wasn't convicted by a 'Court of Public Opinion' - he was convicted by a COURT. It is THAT conviction which troubles people in the context of him rejoining a role where he will be feted.

IMHO CE could actually right now be facing a very different outcome had he behaved in a different fashion post release on licence but he has done nothing but compound the damage caused and much to worsen the victim's already pretty appalling position. Vis the conviction and the aforementioned the sole person accountable for that is CE himself.

In any event, it is now being reported by credible sources that Oldham will NOT be signing him.

Blistory · 08/01/2015 11:43

There’s obviously still confusion over what rape is and why one was convicted and the other wasn’t.

Penetration by a man is rape if consent is not given or if consent is forced. Legally certain groups are recognised as being unable to give consent, i.e children, people with learning difficulties, people who are incapacitated. Being drunk is being incapacitated.

There is however a defence available to any man accused which is simply that he asserts that he held a reasonable belief that consent had been given. This consent can be verbal or by actions.

What the jury has to do is consider two issues –
1 Was she incapacitated and therefore deemed to be incapable of consent ?
2 If so, did either man hold a reasonable belief that she had consented ? And if the answer is yes, then they must be found not guilty.

The jury in this case appear to have come to the conclusion that she was incapacitated and therefore not capable of giving consent. The question then turns to what happened to make either man believe that she had given consent. Obviously if she was so drunk that she was unconscious, this question is easy to answer – she’s done nothing and such a belief would be unreasonable. Unfortunately the victim appears to have been drunk enough to be confused but not too drunk to communicate.

The interaction with CM, whilst borderline, appears to have given a jury enough evidence that he had reason to believe he did have consent. They have to be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that he didn’t which is quite a high hurdle so their verdict makes sense based on her condition, her actions and what the law actually says.

CE has a serious difficulty however in proving that he believed she consented. He had spent no time with her and was not in a position to assess her condition. He had no obvious reason to travel to the hotel in the first place, he broke into the hotel room, he didn’t announce his presence initially, he didn’t introduce himself, he changed his position on whether he asked her or CM if he could join in, he left by a fire escape.

CE has found guilty because he had sexual intercourse with someone incapable of consenting AND had no reasonable belief that she had consented. All of which he has admitted to – he simply doesn’t believe that this constitutes rape.

So drunken women are not given a free pass to cry rape simply because they are drunk and men are not found guilty of rape simply because of a victim’s incapacity. It would obviously be prudent of men to ensure that they don’t have sex with women who are drunk, not just because of the potential legal ramifications but because it’s the decent thing to do. CE appears to know neither the law of the land nor the decent thing to do.

CE remains a danger to women whilst he remains un-rehabilitated. The legal system has punished him but now expects him to be rehabilitated so gives him a window of opportunity to do so. He is choosing to reject that opportunity and it is entirely right that society condemns him for failing to complete the second part of the process. Giving tacit support to a campaign that hounds his victim, refusing to accept the reality of his crime, seeking to reengage in a high profile profession are all indicative of the fact that this man is far from rehabilitated or indeed is capable of it.

I’m not standing at his front door baying for blood, I’m not saying that he should never work again. I’m asking that CE is forced to comply with the criminal justice system and our idea of punishment and integration instead of thumbing his nose at it and being rewarded for doing so.

slug · 08/01/2015 11:44

We, as parents, try and teach our children that actions have consequences.

It appears that some would like to amend that basic bit of parenting to .. Actions have consequences unless you are a footballer. Hmm

SlowlorisIncognito · 08/01/2015 11:45

Let's be clear- there are not doubts about his conviction, otherwise his two previous attempts to appeal would not have been turned down.

What people mean, when they say that, is that they don't believe that having sex with someone who is unable to consent is rape. Fortunately, the law does not agree with them, and agrees that someone who is incapacitated due to alcohol cannot consent to anything. They cannot sign a contract and they cannot consent to sex.

BOFster · 08/01/2015 11:47

Well, I'm off to Nando's tonight then Grin

KatoPotato · 08/01/2015 11:51

When arrested and interviewed by police, Evans boasted to cops that he and McDonald "could have had any girl" they wanted in a nightclub they had been to.

He told them: "We were drinking, having fun there. It’s not uncommon we pick up girls. Clayton’s an attractive guy. We are footballers, that’s how it is.

"Footballers are rich, they have got money, that’s what the girls like."

And this sums up all that is wrong.

Boobz · 08/01/2015 11:51

Thanks Blistory, that has helped me clear it up in my head.

MrsVamos · 08/01/2015 11:53

Great news if the Sky report is correct.

The 'witch hunt' is working ! Hmm

TheWordFactory · 08/01/2015 11:59

slowloris exactly.

What doubts? He was convicted after a full investigation of the evidence. He has sought leave to appeal twice and been refused.

The fact is that CE raped this woman. He doesn't think he did. Not because they didn't have sex, not because she lied, but because he doesn't think that what he did is rape.

He's wrong and has been told so three times.

PasstheDaimbars · 08/01/2015 12:07

Excellent post Blistory

corkysgran · 08/01/2015 12:09

Slug the cognitive dissonance I referred to is where you say he must not get away with it, he must face the consequences and the police and courts aren't interested. This is obviously not true he has been pursued by police and sentenced by a judge. He has served the sentence given by the court. He has therefore not 'got away with it'. You and others seem to think he has. I call that cognitive dissonance as ypu are ignoring the fact of his trial, the guilty verdict and subsequent senyence when they are a matter of public record. You prefer to think he got away with it. I am certainly not sorry for CE and have not defended him at all, nor have I made any suggestion that he is innocent.

OP posts:
Chunderella · 08/01/2015 12:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OnlyLovers · 08/01/2015 12:14

corkys, I think slug was saying that the police and courts often don't seem interested, generally, in rape claims; and that in this case society (by which I think she means those in society who wish/wished to sign him, exonerate him, hound his victim etc) is not interested.

NOT that in this specific case the police and courts aren't interested.

And, although I don't know how many times this has now been said, CE has NOT YET served the sentence given by the court. He has served the custodial portion of it but is still on license.

OnlyLovers · 08/01/2015 12:15

PS slug, sorry if I've misunderstood any of what you meant.

StarsOfTrackAndField · 08/01/2015 12:17

My own view is that there can't be a hard and fast rule about footballer convicted of serious offences returning to the game. I don't think rapists can never be rehabilitated and shouldn't be given the chance (though given many of them are serial offenders I'm sceptical about it)

I do think that, because Ched Evans is, via the chedevans.com website and the actions of relatives and fans, associated with ongoing aggression towards his victim, he's undeserving of a continued football career.

I agree wholeheartedly, it isn't just the horifitc nature of his crime, it the lack of repentance and the aggressive bullying of his victim that is disturbing.

Even if he felt he had been wrongly convicted, but on the basis of the behaviour he admitted to in court, it is difficult to see how that could be. Nevertheless he could have gone about his appeal in a far more dignified way. Made a single statement that he would be appealing the judgement and would not be looking to resume his playing career until outstanding legal matters had been settled and called on his knuckleheaded supporters to leave everyone involved in the case alone.

He doesn't appear to have reflected on his behaviour at any point and is devoting his energies to hounding his victim, even if in his own mind it wasn't rape (thankfully a jury and the judge who refused him leave to appeal disagreed) the behaviour he admitted to was vile and exploitative. He does not acknowledge this or show any contrition or inclination to reflect on this.

As the poster above stated I don't think there should be a hard and fast rule about footballer convicted of serious crimes resuming their careers. If he'd spent a period away from the game, thought about his actions, went through a rehabilitation programme and demonstrated that he had changed his behaviour towards women then there MIGHT be a debate about the possibility of him resuming his professional career.

He has done none of these things, he has left prison, shown not one iota of contrition and has expected to resume his career where it left off. As an unrepentant rapist, who is continuing to victimise the woman he raped, he should be not let anywhere near a league club.

slug · 08/01/2015 12:17

Try reading my post again. What I was referring to was rape culture and the way for so many women (1 in 3 of us) the police and the courts are not interested in punishing rapists.

He has not served his sentence. He has served only part of it. His victim is still being punished. He, on the other hand, while only half way through his sentence is unrepentant and refuses to acknowledge that he has done anything wrong. He needs, in order to be a functioning member of society, to realise that what he did was a crime. Until he admits to this, he has not been rehabilitated and women are not safe around him. By handing him a job where he is feted and paid well, where he is a role model for young boys to emulate he is, in fact, getting away with what he has done.

Meanwhile his victim is hounded from her home and cannot live a normal life. There is no justice for her, just as there is no justice for the vast majority of the thousands of women who are raped every year in the UK.

I suggest respectfully that perhaps your understanding of cognitive dissidence is different from mine. It is, after all a few years since I did that Psychology degree.

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