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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think this is unfair, and quit my job over it

102 replies

mytartanscarf · 25/12/2014 22:35

I'll try my best not to drip feed.

Okay - I work in people's homes providing care to them. Most calls are 15 minutes so an average shift has between 12 and 15 people on them. We don't get paid for the time travelling between people's homes. So each 15 min call is less than £2.

Now we have phones to log in and out of peoples homes. We won't get paid if we don't use them but get paid to the minute. So if a 15 minute call is 11 minutes we only get paid for that.

Some people take so long getting to the door that it's 2 minutes 'unpaid' time on top of travel time

Aibu to think this is really unfair?

OP posts:

Pumpkinpositive · 25/12/2014 22:38

Can you not start logging from the minute you ring the doorbell?

It sounds shit. Do you think conditions would be better working for another provider?

Original poster

mytartanscarf · 25/12/2014 22:42

No, as we have to sort of put the phone next to a tag which is in the clients home.

It's just so frustrating. It isn't as if we are on a lot of money and have to do a lot of travelling around. And there's never enough time to get from one persons home to another. It just means starting and finishing at silly o'clock OR taking home significantly less and we aren't on much as it is.

Plus, if we break the phone we have to pay for the damage which is fairly likely!

OP posts:

Babyroobs · 25/12/2014 22:42

Sounds awful, that possibly works out to less than minimum wage if there is a bit of travelling between Jobs? I would look for something else and as pp says log in when you ring the doorbell.

Original poster

mytartanscarf · 25/12/2014 22:44

It is less than minimum wage.

Logging in when you ring the doorbell isn't an option (if only!)

OP posts:

Pumpkinpositive · 25/12/2014 22:46

If it's less than the minimum wage, can you challenge your employer about this?

I think I'd be looking for another job. Wouldn't advise quitting before you find one though.

Original poster

mytartanscarf · 25/12/2014 22:48

Pumpkin it's legal as it's contact time only. It's just that if you have 12 calls and 5 minutes between them that obviously amounts to an hour unpaid - very frustrating.

It really isn't worth my doing it - I'd be spending more on petrol than is be earning!

OP posts:

raltheraffe · 25/12/2014 22:50

They are breaking the law. I run a cleaning company and we do offices out of hours. Peninsula Business Services, who are brilliant with employment law advised me that the cleaners' shift did not begin when they swiped inside the office, it begins when they unlock the front gate. So I had to allow them a reasonable amount of time from arriving at the front gate to swiping in and I had to pay them for it.

Do NOT quit, you lose almost all your rights in law if you throw in the towel. Instead look at your contract where it will state the grievance procedure. If it is not stipulated in the contract, you need to request it from the company. Then explain that your job starts when you knock at the door and you wish to be paid for a reasonable period of time between you knocking and swiping the inside tag. You need to raise it as a formal written grievance.

Whereas Peninsula work for business owners, ACAS work for employees. You can phone their helpline and I am sure they will give you good advice. Your employers are breaking the law here.

raltheraffe · 25/12/2014 22:51

It is not legal OP, your boss may have told you that but I assure you it is not.

Original poster

mytartanscarf · 25/12/2014 22:53

I'm pretty positive the laws you state aren't applicable in our case as every home care company I know if is the same.

I think things may be changing in the near future though with regard to being paid a fixed hourly rate but this doesn't come into affect until April and I can't afford to work for four months for nothing which is effectively what id be doing!

OP posts:

raltheraffe · 25/12/2014 22:55

You really need to check with ACAS, the helpline is local rate charges only. I would kick up a stink about it.

Pumpkinpositive · 25/12/2014 22:56

I'm pretty positive the laws you state aren't applicable in our case as every home care company I know if is the same.

They may all very well be taking the piss. It's at least worth finding out.

If you walk out on a job this may impact your ability to claim job seekers whilst you try to find other work.

Original poster

mytartanscarf · 25/12/2014 22:57

I've never claimed job seekers and never will!

OP posts:

raltheraffe · 25/12/2014 22:59

The vast majority of cleaning companies take the piss when it comes to employment law. They rely on the fact most cleaners are not particularly aware of what their rights are. I know of cleaning companies which are so big they are household names that totally take the piss out of their workers. Also one major supermarket giant that I am not naming breaks the law when it comes to their cleaning staff.

raltheraffe · 25/12/2014 23:00

Don't go on JSA OP, you will probably end up on workfare-Tory bastards.

Elmersnewfriend · 25/12/2014 23:06

Ooh, big thing recently (well big in the world of NMW) that travelling time for care workers should be paid time. Let me try and find a link.

slightlyglitterstained · 25/12/2014 23:08

I started a thread the other day - the petition linked in it sounds very much like it isn't legal to pay this way, just common:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2261716-at-the-stats-in-this-petition-about-care-workers-being-underpaid-and-wonder-if-its-the-end-of-the-minimum-wage

Elmersnewfriend · 25/12/2014 23:09

Here you go. This is one link but if you google - care workers national minimum wage travel - you will find others. Your employer is breaking the law. You could ring the NMW whistle blowing line? Your employer wouldn't find out who had done that.

www.walkermorris.co.uk/national-minimum-wage-‘travel-time’-win-home-care-workers

WooWooOwl · 25/12/2014 23:10

It is disgusting how badly carers are treated by this country. You are doing such an important job, but your situation is common and it gives me the rage.

sleepingdragon · 25/12/2014 23:11

Its not legal, but sadly very common in social care. I think its esitmated that over 200thousand care workers are paid less than minimum wage. There was an HMRC investigation about it last year and ongoing investigations/ discussions in parliament etc. my phone won't let me do any links, but you can google something along the lines of home care low pay commission if you want. It doesn't help you out of your situation in the short term, but hopefully means that things will change at some point in the future.

sleepingdragon · 25/12/2014 23:13

I got carried away reading the links I couldn't post and massively cross-posted!

Llareggub · 25/12/2014 23:15

Also, if a client pays for 15 minutes they should get 15 minutes, not 11 minutes. The care sector places too much pressure on staff to run from call to call. Care shouldn't attract profit.

Original poster

mytartanscarf · 25/12/2014 23:17

Clients don't always need or want us to stay though. I'll ring that number (thank you!) but am not hopeful

I've no intention of going on jsa by the way; I never have.

OP posts:

Elmersnewfriend · 25/12/2014 23:22

The sleeping bit is a related case. The one most relevant to you is in the paragraph above - ie the bit saying that travel time between appointments should nearly always be paid.

Give the whistle blowing helpline a ring. They will discuss it with you properly and let you see if there might be a case.

TillyGotTangled · 26/12/2014 01:02

The company I work for trialled this recently although pay wasn't affected by the length of time stayed in the home - it was times being actively monitored.

I have been in care from I left school- 4 years of that as a carer in the community- and even I was horrified at how little time some staff stayed in homes - 3-4mins for dozens of 15 minute calls and maybe 10-12mins for 30min or even 45min calls to wash, dress and toilet people. Completely inexcusable to try and claim those tasks and sometimes breakfast as well can be done properly in 10mins.

I'm certainly not suggesting that you do this at all OP but that's what brought it around with us - paying staff up to double the time they were actually spending with clients.

Can I ask though are you time or task orientated? If you stay longer with the service user will you get paid for it?

Original poster

mytartanscarf · 26/12/2014 07:12

I don't honestly know. Probably not.

It depends on the task as to whether it's "inexcusable." Normally I'd agree but for instance we have some medication prompt calls that take 5 minutes and the people concerned don't need or want us to stay longer than this.

Then we are given 5 minutes to get to and from people's homes but a lot of people live further away from one another than this.

But the point is that if you are allocated 30 minutes and driving there takes 7 minutes and then another 2 minutes in the cold or wind or rain waiting for them to answer the door and then one minute getting out then 10 mins unpaid per client. And if the tasks take 27 minutes instead of 30 - who would or could begrudge you 3 minutes pay? It's purely a money-orientated thing and it's rubbish.

OP posts:

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