To think this is unfair, and quit my job over it

[mytartanscarf]

I'll try my best not to drip feed.

Okay - I work in people's homes providing care to them. Most calls are 15 minutes so an average shift has between 12 and 15 people on them. We don't get paid for the time travelling between people's homes. So each 15 min call is less than £2.

Now we have phones to log in and out of peoples homes. We won't get paid if we don't use them but get paid to the minute. So if a 15 minute call is 11 minutes we only get paid for that.

Some people take so long getting to the door that it's 2 minutes 'unpaid' time on top of travel time

Aibu to think this is really unfair?

I don't like it. I need short shifts (4-5 hours) and it's very demanding.

The problem is the local council give the people to the company and they won't pay travel time - not many places will. But in any case I've worked for the company for 7 months and NEVER been paid travel time. The phones logging us in and out would just push my pay down to a point where it's barely worth doing it which is why I've resigned.

I appreciate your point of view OP. It's very demoralising.

I disagree with your decision to resign.

You had the opportunity to stand up to illegal working conditions, not just for yourself but for the other employees.

You are going to struggle with a constructive dismissal case because you did not raise your concerns in line with the company's grievance procedure.

So companies like this will continue to take the piss out of low paid workers.

"The vast majority of cleaning companies take the piss when it comes to employment law. They rely on the fact most cleaners are not particularly aware of what their rights are. I know of cleaning companies which are so big they are household names that totally take the piss out of their workers. Also one major supermarket giant that I am not naming breaks the law when it comes to their cleaning staff."

This is sort of true - if employees drive themselves to the various properties, they don't get paid for that time. If they are driven by someone else, they are supposed to be paid (as they are not at their own free liberty then.) But few companies follow the law at all.

And people in this country expect to pay cleaners minimum wage (or maybe £10 an hour, with little thought to overhead and company wanting to make a profit.)

For this reason, I abandoned my plans to grow my own cleaning business into a company with employees - there is just no way to do it legally and ethically, much less be able to employ good dependable people while still making any sort of profit.

Carers are treated very much the same.

Fabulassie do you still clean?

I only do offices and commercial properties, tried domestic but did not like it.
Here is my list of how cleaning companies take the piss. These are the so called reputable firms, not the rogue ones with illegal immigrants on £3 an hour. Some of these are big names, but I will not clarify what companies they are as it will be seen as defamation.

1. deduct £1 a week out of salary for vacuum rental
2. deduct £70 out of first pay packet as insurance in case they nick the vacuum, they only get it back when they leave if vacuum is in pristine condition which it never is due to wear and tear
3. not supply any chemicals and tell them to use cloths dampened with water. Most cleaners take pride in their work so end up buying chemicals for their job from the supermarket at their own expense
4. when NMW goes up not to up the salary unless given a formal written warning, and then only upping the wage for the cleaners who complain
5. make cleaners pay for apron and PPE
6. never give them their last pay packet when they leave
7. deduct the number of days sick leave from their 28 day annual leave allowance
8. tell cleaner they are self-employed as a contractor so they lose all rights to annual leave and NMW even though legally it can be proven they are employees
9. totally disregard their rights to notice pay and sack on the spot

Thing is they get away with it time and time again. This is massively frustrating for me as a competitor who follows the law.

Ralthe - where have I said or insinuated that I would go for constructive dismissal?

If you feel so strongly about the rights of carers you are free to raise it yourself. I know however that companies don't pay travel time. They just don't. Adding the phone logging in/out is the icing on the cake.

It's the final thing that's pushed me and there's other stuff too but I've just had enough. Why you "disagree with it" I don't know.

This a horrible race to the bottom when the government doesn't enforce decent minimum standards.

In the 19th Century when children worked in the mills it was because mill-owners obviously didn't pay children adult wages. One mill-owner wrote to parliament begging them to ban child-labour because otherwise he could not compete with the mill-owners who employed children.

You never said you would go for constructive dismissal, however if you had followed the correct grievance procedures and taken advice from ACAS you would have had a strong case, as long as you were not short service.

I disagree with it as companies will continue to take the piss out of low paid workers when those workers do not stand up for their rights. That, in turn makes life harder for the companies who follow the law as the rogue company gains an unfair advantage.

Not only have you done yourself a disservice, you have done your ex-colleagues a disservice by not standing up for yourself.

Yes, it's all my fault. I see.

There are big moves to get this rectified. It's commonplace but not exactly legal.

UNISON has welcomed a ruling by HMRC to force a major homecare provider to pay its staff £600,000 in arrears after failing to pay them for their travel time.

How private care firms have got away with breaking the law on pay

Fight! Good luck.

Just to add mytartanscarf I do raise it with the appropriate authorities when one of my competitors break the law. I always report so they lose the unfair advantage they are trying to get.

Last year I did a quote for a company who came back and said although I was the most professional they had one company who came in with a considerably cheaper quote. I asked them for feedback as to what the quote was and when i did some basic maths it equated to £5.61 an hour. That includes the cleaner's salary, insurance, equipment, admin expenses and management fees. At the time NMW was £6.19 an hour. I explained this to the potential customer who chose to stick to the unrealistic price.

That is shit.

You are caring for done of the most vulnerable people in out society yet you are being paid a crap wage and being treated with distrust by your employers.

The whole thing is very sad.

YANBU

You are caring for done of the most vulnerable people in out society yet you are being paid a crap wage and being treated with distrust by your employers

This!

It looks like the need for strong unions is greater than ever.

rather it is not for everyone to fight. Yes it's very important, but OP made the decision she feels is right. You can't try to make her feel responsible for this - it's very unfair.

The petition up thread is to put the onus (and resources) on HMRC to investigate further, rather than relying in whistleblowers.

On, sorry.

Just to clarify I am not saying OP is responsible for unlawful working conditions, her employers are.

However OP is responsible for now being jobless because she could have stood up to these crooks.

I just hate it when people throw in the towel.

They aren't crooks Ralthe - google it. You're looking at it from a cleaning perspective (sorry.) yes, the conditions are shit but they are legal (at the moment.)

As I've said this isn't the only reason but it's the final straw really!

You regard it as throwing in the towel, OP sees it differently.

I'd ditch the job and do something you genuinely enjoy doing.

I understand that luis.

I can only speak about the cleaning industry as I am not experienced in the care sector.

However all the points I made in the 16.24 post refer to big, so-called, reputable companies, some of which are household names. They ARE crooks because they break the law.

The really dodgy firms who employ illegals tend to get shut down pretty quick.

I would go as far as saying only a minority of contract cleaning firms follow the law.

So many carers become disillusioned for reasons that include being unable to deliver quality care due to time constraints, long hours, poor pay, poor training and the list goes on. There is a high turnover of staff, good carers are lost daily because of the crap conditions.

The responsibility ultimately lies with the government. Local councils commission care packages for as little as £9 per hour. An agency has to pay the carer and all the overheads out of that, so it's no wonder any and every corner is cut.

There ARE some good firms out there, but they are in the minority. The ones paying less than NMW are also predominantly employing people on zero hours. Carers are afraid to come forward because they risk losing hours.

Change has to happen from the top down.

Yes ralther they are crooks, I agree. What I mean is op shouldn't be berated for not standing up to her employer, that's all.

As a union rep I get annoyed when members complain to me about managements illegal/against policy decisions, and then say "well I suppose they are right, I have to do..." after I have told them how to resolve it and how I can support them.

I have to accept that it is their choice though. I cant make them stick up for their rights and I cant do it for them.

You cannot berate a person for making a different choice to yourself if that is the right choice for them.