8 week old DD won't sleep!!! Feeling desperate :(

[Absofrigginlootly]

Posted this in 'sleep' but also posting here for traffic. Sorry, but I am so desperate now!!!!

Sorry this is long, but detail needed I think. Typing this after hours of trying to get DD to sleep she has finally given in and asleep on me (for the moment).....

DD is almost 8 weeks old and exclusively BF. Has always been a crap sleeper/frequent waker and fought naps in the day but sometimes went 2-3 hours in her cot at night.

This week (week 7) she has become even more alert and it's made her sleeping even more of a nitemare! She is basically point blank refusing to sleep anywhere but on me or DH so we have to take it in turns throughout the night...but sometimes she won't even sleep on us until hours of 'battling' her to sleep have passed!

I have noticed that if she is awake for more than 2 hours she goes into meltdown (hard as she is SO alert she would stay awake all day of left to her own devices!!! This has happened on few days when I've had to attend appointments, and ends in hours and hours of screaming and taking until 12-1am to settle her!!!) so I try to get her back to sleep before 1-2 hours of awake time.... Hit and miss at the moment.

We are both feeling desperate now, if DH wasn't here I'd be averaging 1-2hrs a night max. Surely this isn't normal?! You can tell she's exhausted but she just won't let herself go, and even when she does, she's sleeping so lightly that the slightest thing (e.g, she moves her own arm) wakes her up. She's comfort sucking so much she's pooing loads, I'm worried she'll make herself ill...but if I don't give it to her then she just screams hysterically!!! The only time she gives in if I refuse her the boob (if I'm ridiculously sore for e.g.) cuddle her/rock her and essentially let her cry (which is f'king awful!) is after many many hours and she is completely exhausted. Can't co sleep....have tried it, it doesn't work because she wakes herself up, being led down next it me is the same as being in her cot so she might as well be in there because at least I sleep better. Sometimes I can rock her to sleep if she's almost asleep from feeding lots, but she's getting so heavy I can't do it much longer because it makes my stitches hurt (extensive tearing) Even DH is struggling to rock her to sleep now.

My HV is useless and never has more than 5 mins to speak because she's so disorganised and always running late. All the usual suggestions (swaddling, trips out in pram/car seat, white noise, dummy etc) make no difference at all :(

Considering giving a bottle of formula last thing at night....?! But I KNOW she's not hungry, she just won't sleep!!!!!! So don't think it would make any difference and after all I've gone thru to breastfeed (another thread!!) it feels like a failure.

I'm feeling pretty low and desperate....

Can't leave her alone to cry.... She's only 9 weeks old, I'm not comfortable with that approach at all. Plus when she is upset, she gets herself hysterical and then cries because she is crying/frightened herself in the same way that toddlers sometimes do (when they're crying so much they get themselves in such a tizz they don't even know why they're crying anymore IYSWIM)

Sorry, that sounded blunt - didn't mean it to. Not typing my best today in my sleep deprived state!!

She is normal - google high needs babies Dr Sears. I have had 2 of them and they both had silent reflux.
Signs of silent reflux are arching back to try and elongate the neck and a clicking swallowing noise when lying down which will often wake them up. If you suspect it's this, get to your GP. The only thing that worked is cosleeping with a cosleeping cot and a sleepyhead pillow the second time around with the cot tilted up. I tried everything else.

Darling, in the nicest possible way, and in the way most people do with a new baby, you are massively over thinking it all. How much sleep does a new baby need in 24 hours? Anything from 12-18 hours. They are all so different.
If you had a toddler, yes you would have to pop the baby in a sling or pram and go out with the toddler while she screamed and yes she probably would drop off eventually. You would still be knackered though!
But since you don't have a toddler you dont need to worry about that. Isn't that wonderful? One less thing!
Don't get hung up on numbers. At every stage in the babys development, especially if you have a crap sleeper, you will become convinced you have hit on the magic formula, eg, must make her nap every hour and a half etc. It's never an exact science, and, at some point, you also need to live life. It's fine for her to nap on you, but she doesn't need to nap all day long. If you can't sit on the sofa with her on you all day ( and when your husband goes back to work you can't! ) you will put her down, and yes she may wake up. If she wakes up she may cry. Try the things sugested re washing machine or white noise machine, it may help soothe her. Or you could wear a sling sometimes around the house.
Babies are pretty resilient actually. She just needs to know she is safe and warm, and you are around, which at this age she does. If you need to make some lunch, and she is wailing, don't be scared of it. It's just a few minutes, and she knows deep down you are not abandoning her if she is sitting in a carrycot watching you in the kitchen or whatever. When she complains, show her there is no need to panic, act cheerful and sing along!
And if you get more sleep letting her sleep on you, then fine, do it. I did this for a few weeks, and then at 4 months he decided be loved his cot, so there you go! This early phase is hard, it really is, but you must drive yourself crazy worrying that you are doing the wrong things. Everything will be so different in 3 months, don't worry about future bad habits. Bad habits in babies are relatively easy to break actually.
Also, please dont rule out reflux because she likes being on her back in the day. So did mine, and would kick and play happy as Larry on his back, but just not sleep. Everything you describe wrt the 40 minute cycles and the jolting awake, I am nodding at, it is so familiar.
Basically, look after you first and foremost, and everything will feel easier.

abso I'm not anti controlled crying (unlike much of MN) and might even consider doing 10 mins of it with a 9 week old... but only if I was absolutely totally sure that there was nothing physically wrong, and definitely not if the baby is overtired.. So def not with your DD. If you try letting an overtired baby cry they do go hysterical as you say.

How much sleep - I think at 9 weeks it's meant to be c. 15 hours a day in total. Some need a bit less but definitely should be at least 13.

I think you said on another thread that you'd had tongue tie cut? or am I confusing you with someone else?

Try not to worry too much about what you'd do if you had a toddler... honestly, at the moment the only thing to think about is "what works right now" to get you through this stage. It will get better as she gets older, I promise. By 12 weeks you should see a difference, eg she may be able to sleep in pram for naps and sleep next to you rather than on you at night, although she may still wake at the 30-40 min point. Unless she has reflux, but it doesn't sound hugely like it from what you've said.

I wouldn't leave a 9 week old baby to cry for 10 mins either. 2 or 3 mins, while she can see you is Ok though, in my opinion anyway.

Ah cross posted, sounds like I am wrong to rule out reflux.

Ah just read your update sorry. I have a baby like yours and a 3 year old. Get the baby whisperer solves all your problems book and use the advice to tackle naps in cot. There is some crying but her techniques do work. Lots of babies have no self settling ability - neither of mine has and had to be taught it. I got to 20 months old still napping on me and cosleeping before I had to do controlled crying with DD but had to get DS to nap in his cot using baby whisperer from a couple of months old - all naps before then were on the sling constantly moving.. He still cosleeping however at night.

And yes yes yes to what IfNot said. It is not healthy (and I mean this nicely) to be a martyr to your child. You need to eat and function as a human being. And I say this with the voice of experience.

don't deprive yourself of going out, that isn't going to help you and even a 30 minute walk in the fresh air, whether your DD is awake or not will help you - it's amazing how much better you feel. I used to have a coffee cup holder for the buggy which was light enough to steer with one hand and went out whatever the weather. Go with the flow, if she sleeps better on you, then go with it for the moment, nap when she does, if she's happy in a sling, then go with it. Thermos flask, box sets, if she will only nap on you during the day. It will pass! I remember growth spurts of anything cognitive development used to result in poor sleep. Crying for a few minutes whilst you get food/drink/go to the toilet isn't going to damage her either but will help you.

My DD1 was like this from birth to 3 months, it was so exhausting. It felt like torture. I had PND and was convinced that she was doing it because she hated me. The only thing that helped was putting her to sleep on her tummy. First night she had about 6 hours straight! She slept on her front in the pram too which helped with daytime naps.

Once she'd cracked it she slept for most of the night and had a few daytime naps too. I found routine to be v important so I'd take her up to bed after her 6pm feed (formula fed) and I'd lay down too. Her 10pm feed was done in bed in very dim light and she was put down as quickly as possible afterwards. Kept everything as calm and quiet as possible during night feeds.

Honestly, having your first baby is a baptism of fire, and there's so much trial and error that you just have to battle on and easier times will come

Oh and reflux caused by food intolerances normally starts around 4 weeks old, is the worst in the early hours of the morning and normally has greeny, mucousy poo not the yellow peanut butter stuff most breasted babies have.

I found a swing turned up to the highest setting, dummy and white noise worked wonders.

I know what you're saying ifnot about my own needs but if she is asleep I cannot put her down without her waking up...100% guarantee.

When she wakes up when she is asleep she will cry..... If she is not comforted within a few seconds she becomes hysterical very quickly which can go on for a looooong time. Sometimes for hours on and off, especially if near to the end of the day.

So the thing with saying just go out/make food/ etc it doesn't really feel worth it (especially going out) because all it results in is an evening of screaming and taking until the early hours to get her to settle. Which is even less fun than being somewhat trapped indoors/on the sofa trying to get her to sleep/nap.

So by trying to avoid all of that iam thinking somewhat of my own needs too, because I am getting pretty ground down by it all now. It just feels relentless.

Ps, yes she had an anterior and posterior TT, snipped at 1 week and 5 weeks respectively.

I get it I really do. I remember what was probably 3 weeks but felt like a year, of walking up and down trying to soothe a screaming baby, in a dark room, for 3 hours every night.
And he was so tired, I would think "sleep if you are tired!" But he couldn't drop off as too worked up. Believe me, I know, I really do. I would feed him and hold him until I thought he was in a deep sleep, put him down, eyes would suddenly open after 5 mins, another 2 hours of wakefulness. .its all coming back to me!
The gaviscon did really help, but if it's not reflux, it could just be that you have a colicky, overtired baby.
I also am wondering if dd is warm enough? I remember all the advice was constantly not to let them get too hot but my flat was cold, and I am sure actually ds was often waking up cold because I was convinced I was going to kill him by letting him get too hot.(there's that over thinking. .)As soon as spring came, he slept better, and still sleeps better in warmer weather. Just thinking, if she is going from nice warm mummy to cold bed, could be the reason, or part of the reason, for waking.

Try a hot water bottle in the cot to warm in before putting her down maybe. Is that allowed, or against some guidelines I don't know about?
I really want to help, because I was you! Only without the husband, just to make you feel extra sorry for me
Oooh, also, I tried the baby whisperer thing, kind of, and it did help a bit too, e.g put them in the cot the minute the crying stops, repeat until your arms drop off. Eventually, they do accept the cot.
Not long to go before it all suddenly gets a bit better anyway.

Go out when she is awake. Even for a 10 minute walk around the block, you will feel a bit better. Food in a box near the sofa, thermos flask, box sets so you can eat and drink whilst she sleeps. Can you get relatives to look after her when she is awake and you are not trying to get her to sleep so you can have a shower or bath? Bottle of either expressed milk or formula so you can have more than an hour's sleep. You need to look after you too, or you are going to become ill.
Have only skimmed the thread, friends have sworn by cranial osteopathy if you haven't tried it. No experience of silent reflux, but it is worth getting checked out.
I think it concerns a lot of us that you don't feel you can go out and we're worried about you. One of my friend's DS had terrible troubles sleeping, but she still came out and we all helped or went to her, made tea, bought cake, made her lunch to help her feel less isolated. Have you got any friends who you could send a SOS to?

Hmm.. If she comfort suckling can you try a pacifier? The gumdrop ones won't cause nipple confusion and are shaped just like a nipple.

DD went through a period where she would scream herself to sleep. Couldn't do anything about it, just had to hold her and let her tire herself out until she crashed.

Do you have a swing or something that automatically rocks? Our trick was to put DD in a swing to sleep and it would rock her all night. We're having hell breaking her from it at 9 months. But... She sleeps through the night better, so we have more restful sleep and sanity patience breaking her in.

You poor thing. This sounds like my life 4 years ago after my first born and then again 15 months later with my son. Both had silent reflux (constant oesophagal regurgitation rather than explosive vomiting that can be associated with traditional reflux). We tried dentanox, colief etc after being told it was colic and nothing worked. My daughter screamed from the moment she was born, so much so that we were transferred to a private room the first night in hospital, as we were disturbing everyone else. She would feed constantly (it's an attempt to dilute the acid so they will drink more only to find it then causes more pain afterwards) only settle if held, resulting in me walking around with her constantly (sling didn't work for us) and would only sleep on me (but even then fitfully) so I was in the same boat and I was just falling over tired and physically exhausted from just holding her so much. Even putting her down to go to the loo resulted in horrific screams and I kept saying there was something wrong and she was clearly in a lot of pain but was told by midwife and HV that all babies cry and I was a over protective first time mum! I was referred to massage classes for 'unsettled' babies and she screamed throughout the first 5 sessions until the 6th session when I had finally been referred to a paediatrician and got drugs for reflux and literally overnight it was as if my daughter had been swapped with another and she transformed into a smiling happy little girl. The others in the class could not believe the difference. I would suggest strongly that you go to see your GP about silent reflux and if you can read The Baby Whisperer by Tracy Hogg. There's a great section in there with a checklist for identifying reflux symptoms. It saved my sanity as I went through literally going yes, yes, yes, yes to the list of ways in which reflux can be identified and gave me the acknowledgement that my gut instincts were right and there was something very wrong going on and it gave me something to take to the GP to get the referral to the paediatrician and start getting medication (ranitidine and domperidone worked for us although they will usually try and start you on Gaviscon which in my experience did nothing at all). Good luck I do hope you get it sorted as it is truly awful to try and deal with.

Just a quick post to offer lots of sympathy and also to second the warming the cot with a hot water bottle idea. We did this with my son's Moses basket and it helped a bit with the transfers.

Did you try anything else apart from the ranitidine? Ranitidine took a while to work for us but infant gaviscon solved the problem by the second dose. I know everyone is saying silent reflux on this thread but that is what my ds had and he was exactly as you describe your baby. You could try a bottle of anti-reflux milk at bedtime as a trial to see if it helps?

Also ds wouldn't take a dummy to begin with until my mil came to stay and really persevered with it and then he loved it. It can help if when he's comfort feeding from you you unlatch him and quickly put dummy in while still holding him close. Having the dummy was, and continues to be, a lifesaver for us.

A swaddle wrap and baby swing also worked wonders as pp have said.

Just wanted to say OP, that you sound like a fantastic mum - you'll look back on this difficult time and realise what a superhuman effort you put in to try to comfort your little girl. She sounds like a very intense baby. Bet she grows into a brilliant toddler!

Hope you get some sleep soon!

Babies with anterior and posterior tongue ties often won't entertain a dummy because of the shape of their palate IME. If you look at the roof of her mouth, I bet you'll see that it's narrow and very arched.

Has anyone mentioned that tongue tie revisions can fail - e.g., reattach - and need to be cut again? Might be worth ruling that out.

How is her weight gain? Is she tracking a centile line? The reason I ask is that sometimes early breastfeeding issues (such as tongue tie) can cause supply problems down the line as your breasts don't get the right messages on account of the baby not removing enough milk IYSWIM. I hesitate to be one of those people that says 'oh, she must be hungry' -so bloody annoying-- but it might be worth absolutely ruling out hunger as a cause of her unsettledness.

Of course everything you're describing can be perfectly normal but I so understand what you mean about not wanting to go out because it sets them off on one further into the day. People with babies who get the sleep they need really will. not. get. this so just stop explaining to them and plough your own furrow.

In my opinion, the baby whisperer and contented little baby books are not good for breastfeeding tinies. They advocate feeding on schedules which is now how breastfeeding is supposed to work and if there are any legacy issues from the tongue tie then routine feeding with long intervals between feeds is even less advised. Unless you have a definite oversupply.

Sorry to say this, I am all for breast feeding if your baby is happy on it, but I had a baby like yours, and the only time she slept well, was after I switched to FF. I used doctor brown bottles that let less air through the teat and gave her formula. It changed both our lives as we were all getting enough sleep. I thought long and hard before posting this as I know how important it is to breastfeed and give it a chance, but it's also important to save your sanity and be a calm and rested mum to your baby. Good luck xx

yy to everything phoenix said.

She hasn't been weighed since 6 weeks, but she has put on weight and followed her centile since birth....she only lost 7% and was back to and beyond her birth weight by day 10....basically because I fed her 24/7 (see old thread).... I've ordered some scales so I don't gave to bother going to baby clinic and waiting for hours (my HV is always running late) and further messing up her day sleeps, but I can tell she's put on weight in the last 3 weeks as she's almost outgrown her 0-3month baby grows now at 9 weeks!

She's definitely not hungry. The GP has done a paeds referral now....will be good to rule out anything physical like reflux. I've also started a dairy free diet. Then we will know if she's just simply a crap sleeper????!!!

Thanks for the messages of support x