to utterly disagree with the Government's stance on fracking?

[deeedeee]

to think if New York, Quebec, New Brunwick, Holland have all banned fracking in the last month then you'd expect our government to be doing the same, not giddily offering tax breaks.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30525540
www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/dec/17/new-york-state-fracking-ban-two-years-public-health
montrealgazette.com/news/quebec/couillard-rules-out-fracking
globalnews.ca/news/1734016/nb-government-to-introduce-fracking-moratorium/

All these places have listened to increasing scientific studies and say that the risks to public health are too great. Compare this to our prime minister's approach. www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/dec/16/cameron-windfarm-subsidies-onshore-energy

This government is not protecting our health and environment. We all need to look into why and ask them to stop.

The prime minister thinks that opposition will magically disappear when they have steam rollered through the infrastructure bill and wells are up and running www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25735548

How does this compare to the fact that the UK's only current well has already caused two earthquakes and already leaked?

www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-ruffalo/the-science-on-fracking_b_6336392.html

Merry Christmas!

I was in a similar position a while ago when we had a drill near us. I have experienced how the media twists information, how heavy handed the police have been - supporting industry, how planning applications can be allowed despite local people objecting and sound reasons being overlooked. I have witnessed the failings of the Environmental Agency and the Health and Safety Executive. I have lived in a village divided by strong feelings on both sides.

I think what I have realised is the power of the machine that is driving this forward. I read early parliamentary papers and there were massive discussions about how to get the public onside as in the UK we don't have rights to the minerals below the ground. A lot of time and energy has gone into winning the hearts and minds and persuading people it's fine, and that seems to have worked for many.

People want to trust "the system" and it is on many levels inconceivable that if there were real risks attached that fracking would be allowed.

there will be a lot more people in our position realising and researching next year when the new PEDL licences are announced. Most of the UK is earmarked. Do you think people don't realise that?

I find it so sad that alot of the people who do realise and ARE concerned and don't want it to happen, are paralysed and aren't acting as they think it is a done deal? My sister for instance lives a mile and a half away from a drill site. She's says she feels powerless to stop it.

People shouldn't be having their rights eroded like this.

and they need to know if they spread the word, join with their neighbours and protest then they can stop it. Falkirk is a good example for that. Anyone feeling powerless should have a good look at www.faug.org.uk

Just logged in and saw that I got called, perhaps a little aggressively, to answer questions on Sunday that I had already said I couldn't answer as I'm no expert Sorry if it seems like I dropped out there.

I don't know why HSE haven't visited the site - I don't work for them or the fracking company. This doesn't mean the companies themselves don't take health and safety seriously. They do.

It's not just CEOs making money from fracking. In fact oil is at an incredibly low price at the moment - which benefits pretty much everyone apart from the oil companies. The fact that OPEC haven't reduced production suggest that they are trying to make fracking in the states less profitable.

Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they don't have open, questioning minds.

No worries Calloh, we all have other things to do!

What's your take on the New York Compedium Calloh?

Calloh, I apologise for my earlier tone.

My point is that whilst you say that drilling companies take health and safety seriously, the only evidence I have points otherwise. Cuadrilla fracked a damaged well at Preese Hall - how is that best practice? Clearly it's not. On their planning application at Balcombe they did not follow best practice regarding the flare and there were inaccuracies in the details of their planning application, they ignored noise level restrictions and restrictions regarding truck movements.

I believe some companies do take health and safety seriously - but not all of them do.

Regarding the HSE - if the regulations state that they will run site inspection visits but they don't do them - what is the point of regulations?

Calloh, who else is making money out of fracking then? Ineos have offered 6% of any "profits" to local communities.

Only last year Ineos declared Grangemouth unprofitable and then proceeded to strip their staff of their pensions and worker's rights. Whether they decide they are in profit with shale would be up to them.

Who else benefits?

And who bears the burden of risk ?

Don't really get why anyone gives a shhhh.
Firstly, unless you're going to go all Greenham Common on them, there is sweet FA anyone can do about it.
Secondly, it is a purely transitionary resource that cannot be made economically viable, and will peter out soon enough, especially if the petro-dollar continues to decline and Russia and Saudi Arabia are driving the oil price in the future.
Thirdly, this has little to do with ANY government. It is a carving up of potential resources over the entire planet (not just the UK), by the Big Boys, and governments of the day rise or fall depending on how compliant they choose to be.
Don't kid yourselves that we have any say in this whatsoever, short of picking up a banner and chaining yourself to some fence somewhere. Our opinion means squat.
I'd prefer to fight battles I can win, especially if my opponent was the government and their financiers.

deeedeee - The investor benefits. All other 'considerations' are pragmatic bribes to assist in the correct outcome of any discussion, and can simply be reneged upon at a later date.

Exactly, the investor benefits. It has little or no material effect on any of the communities that it happens in.

I agree with you that it will be short lived. It's a bubble that will make lots of companies and their investors even richer, it has no long term future. You can see that by looking at what is happening in Australia and the US , where gas is being burnt off rather than sold as it's not profitable enough to sell anymore.

But what will last is the legacy. Look again at the photo I posted of gas fields in Australia. Remember we're talking thousands of wells in your county in order to make this economic for the companies. And remember these wells need to last forever in order to protect your drinking water, the air you breathe and stop rogue emissions contributing to climate change. Forever! That's one hell of a legacy, that the companies don't need to pay to clean up as the government is not forcing restoration bonds.

It is a fight that can be won!!! Plenty of countries, states, cities are winning it. Look at the link
I posted above. There's a growing realisation by communities that if they speak together and say no they can win. That's how New York's ban came about. That 's what happened in Australia, many of the companies that are buying licences here in the uk have been driven out by the "lock the gate" movement over there.

If we campaign for tighter regulation, for mandatory 2 km buffer zones, for mandatory baseline studies, for mandatory restoration bonds , for the companies involved to have to fund the EA and SEPA to monitor aggressively and transparently , then we either make it safe or as I suspect, we leglislate the life out if it. The point is if it's done safely, it's not economically viable to these companies and they'll go elsewhere.

I agree - campaigning for tighter regulation is the way forward. Is there such a campaign in existence?

That's what Falkirk against Uncoventional Gas have campaigned for. They are just a group of concerned people, parents, homeowners, normal people who had the first planning application for Uncoventional gas production in the UK two years ago. They have made a community mandate and community charter, stating the things about their communities they value and aren't willing to lose ( such as public health, clean water, clean air, amongst other things) , calling for their views to be a material consideration to any planning application and calling for 2km buffer zones, mandatory baseline studies, mandatory monitoring carried out transparently by SEPA and funded by industry, restoration bonds and full disclosure by industry of the processes and chemicals used.

Their campaign took the planning application to a public inquiry which was called in by the Scottish Government. The SG are due to make a judgement on it in the new year. It's a landmark decision, similar to new yorks.

Www.faug.org.uk

Every community could have a campaign like there's . And increasingly more and more places are.

This is a fight that is winnable. It just needs people to start researching this and then spreading the word. These are our communities, our health, our landscapes. It's not a done deal.

The only true answer is nuclear power.

Thanks deeedeee. We've got www.frackfreesussex.co.uk down where I am but I don't think they have been campaigning as such for tighter regulations but they have taken the council to the high court I think. (over ruled though)

Moniker I think the debate is as much about democracy as it is about energy.

This is a useful link too: drillordrop.com/2014/12/21/government-urged-to-consider-cumulative-impacts-of-fracking/

Moniker I think the debate is as much about democracy as it is about energy.

We don't live in a democracy. Government is not the controlling power. Big Energy couldn't give a F which party forms the government, and those parties couldn't give a F who you vote for. It is a game. Big Energy will do as they please, the government of the day will back them up 100%, although they will release whatever sound bites are needed just to keep you staring at your TV, and you are kidding yourself if you think it'd have been any different is Party XYZ had been in power, or Country A had been separate from Country B or not. Countries are run at a far higher level than politics for the masses.

People have and can show their power. You despondency is as bad as other's apathy!

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

deedee - Not at all. I am aware of how the system works. With me it is apathy. I do not care sufficiently about the destruction of this or that piece of land enough to take action to prevent it. I choose not to. It will not affect me, and I have no intention of being in this part of the globe for my children to have to live with the blight. It is pure pragmatism.

What I was pointing out was that any action up and to lobbying government will not work. Governments hold no power. That fact that many people think they do is testament to the effectiveness with which we have 'educated them' in their school system.

Yes, the people have power, but only if they conscious of it. If 95% are not even aware that they are the enablers, and 4% are aware, but couldn't give a shit (like me), then the remaining 1% (like you) are faced with an uphill struggle trying to awaken the brain dead masses, in the face of overwhelming odds.

Your opponent has political and financial resources you cannot fathom, and your potential allies can be diverted with a surprise exit on Strictly or a news article about a Royal. I learned not to fight fights I could not win, and if I am to expend time and effort, it will be to the betterment of my family, not the ideological cause of 'the greater good'.

Not all of us want to move.

I want to keep living and bring my children up here in a place I love without it becoming an industrialised gas field. Other communities have stood up and faced this industry and won. We're not powerless to fight it

Good luck. Many have lost and been decimated.

I can understand wanting to put roots down wherever you choose and feel happy. I was just saying, most people do not realise how powerful people are, and you'll never wake them up. Too many shiny things for them to look at elsewhere. That's how thick they are.

I remember debating full pricing with a group once and pointed out that people choose how much fuel costs. Not government or companies. We choose by consent. If everyone decided one month that they wanted to move the fuel price down, and they chose to abandoned en mass, Shell Oil for example, and they were determined, and no one went to a shell garage at all, anywhere in the country, for a month. Yet they still went about their business, bought their fuel at other garages etc. Shell Oil would only have two options. Sell it's fuel to its competitors, or sell its fuel to the public, both at a discount until it could get its business back up and running.

The same goes for anything. If no-one went to McDonalds for a month, you'd cripple the business. If everyone stopped going to Tesco you'd destroy the company. We have the power, but people will not act in unison in the best interests of their neighbours, and people will not wake up.

Yes as others have pointed the current governments position on fracking is based on recommendations by independent engineering authorities.

In terms of British energy supply I don't think renewables as we currently know are even worth talking about as a primary supply for the UK, the fact environmentalists are still advocating them as our only power generation method is to their discredit. They are just incapable of providing the levels of electricity we use. Prehaps widespread microgeneration? Solar pannels and such on houses might help take the pressure of the national grid.

Oil and gas is a finite resource ect. Imho nuclear power is the only way of providing low carbon, high capacity power. Will never happen though, hollywood has scared everyone to thinking nuclear power stations are ticking time bombs. All the while we're shutting down the fossil fuel power stations, the nuclear power stations are reaching their end of life and renewable aren't producing nearly enough power to supply the UK. We're heading for a energy crisis and no ones got the bottle to do anything about it because the public won't like the answers.

rale124 - The public on the whole live with their heads in the sand. They haven't a clue of the mechanisms you talk about. For most, they will not turn away from their TVs or their OK magazines until they are in the headlights of an oncoming train. That is exactly how they have been trained to act. Very few know how the world works, or even that there could be a discussion to be had out with something read in a newspaper.

To my mind, the issue is one of educating people, and you cannot educate the wilfully ignorant. The interests of the Big Money players will prevail, as it will be the preferred choose of the masses (public opinion printed in the newspapers so that they know what to think), and the solution proposed by government (the solution with the most generous up from payment to government coffers).

Dissent will be from the lunatic fringe with their wacky ideas and notions garnered from the internet, and no amount of fact or reality will stifle the will of the bought and paid for majority. It is the nature of crony capitalism.

Which independent engineering companies Rale?
Elephantspoo - I don't know how to respond to your comments, but I am reading with interest. In West Sussex it was exactly that - the rabbit in the headlights scenario - lots of local people were horrified by the proposed drilling activities and got involved with the protests. The extent of the protests did take the industry by surprise I think and whilst not stopping the drilling, the protests have delayed the process and raised awareness. They won the battle if not the war, (yet).

Just to reiterate - plenty of scientists and engineers don't like fracking as described here:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/11309441/Fracking-banned-on-health-grounds-from-New-York-state.html

Apologies DeeeDeee - I know you have referred to this already