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to utterly disagree with the Government's stance on fracking?

144 replies

deeedeee · 19/12/2014 16:21

to think if New York, Quebec, New Brunwick, Holland have all banned fracking in the last month then you'd expect our government to be doing the same, not giddily offering tax breaks.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30525540
www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/dec/17/new-york-state-fracking-ban-two-years-public-health
montrealgazette.com/news/quebec/couillard-rules-out-fracking
globalnews.ca/news/1734016/nb-government-to-introduce-fracking-moratorium/

All these places have listened to increasing scientific studies and say that the risks to public health are too great. Compare this to our prime minister's approach. www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/dec/16/cameron-windfarm-subsidies-onshore-energy

This government is not protecting our health and environment. We all need to look into why and ask them to stop.

The prime minister thinks that opposition will magically disappear when they have steam rollered through the infrastructure bill and wells are up and running www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25735548

How does this compare to the fact that the UK's only current well has already caused two earthquakes and already leaked?

www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-ruffalo/the-science-on-fracking_b_6336392.html

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londonrach · 21/12/2014 08:57

I think its amazing idea! Throws the cat among the pigeons giving mnetters no clue if i agree or not. Xmas Grin Xmas Grin. Xmas Grin. Sorry mnhq x

flipflop21 · 21/12/2014 09:06

Carol Decker, thank you for that link. If you check out the paragraph entitled Preese Hall it explains that it is the only hydraulically fracked well in the UK to date.

There's fracking and there's fracking. At Wytch Farm in Dorset for example - the largest onshore oilfield in the UK, they are using fracking techniques - as they use fluid to release the oil however it is different to the High Volume Slickwater Fracking that Cuadrilla did at Preese Hall.

If you look at the Wytch Farm website here www.perenco-uk.com/about-us/wytch-farm.html, they describe their activities as conventional oil extraction. Preese Hall and the current shale hoo - ha is all about unconventional oil and gas exploration.

deeedeee · 21/12/2014 09:36

I've tried to explain that the fracking that carol and others are talking about is different to fracking for shale gas . And other forms of unconventional gas extraction, such as Coal bed methane extraction and underground coal gasification. The unconventional gas industry is very different to the conventional oil and gas industry.

Calloh, I have genuinely tried very hard to only link to reports and sources that are completely independent. There is nothing that I have linked to that is scaremongering. I could quite easily post hundreds of links to anti fracking sites, Friend of the Earth and personal testimonies from this effected. The links I have posted are independent. I'll ask again, has anybody read the compendium fem New York that informed the fracking ban there? concernedhealthny.org/compendium/ It's comprehensive and independent and clearly points out that the risks outweigh the benefits. Even if the belief of energy independence and jobs are true then it clearly states that the risks are too great.

Carol, that report you linked to is very interesting, have you read it?

It's conclusions tell of some of the same concerns that I have. Here I'll quote them.

That the companies involved are left to self regulate, do not need to disclose what chemicals they use that are at risk of entering the water table.

"One recommendation is for greater transparency from companies and regulating agencies . Although companies and most US states now provide some information about the chemicals used in hydraulic fracturing (e.g., the FracFocus disclosure registry; www.fracfocus.org), approximately one in five chemicals is still classified as a trade secret. Phasing out the use of toxic chemicals entirely would boost public confidence in the process further. Other examples of transparency are to disclose data for mud-log gases and production-gas and water chemistry to regulatory agencies and, ideally, to the public and to end the use of nondisclosure clauses for legal settlements with homeowners over issues such as groundwater contamination. The challenge is to balance the needs of companies with those of public safety."

That there are no short or long term health studies on the effect on human health.

" A second recommendation would address one of the biggest research gaps today: the need for short- and long-term studies of the potential effects of unconventional energy extraction on human health. Virtually no comprehensive studies have been published on this topic (76, 162–164). Nevertheless, decisions on when and where to drill are already being decided based on this issue. France and Bulgaria have bans on hydraulic fracturing that are directly associated with perceived health risks. In the United States, New York State has a moratorium on high-volume hydraulic fracturing until a review of the potential health effects is completed."

That there is no legislation for baseline studies to be taken. Without them it's not possible to prove that environmental damage has occurred. The HSE, Environment Agency and SEPA need to be funded by the companies to take baseline studies for at least two years prior to extraction

"Third, the importance of baseline studies prior to drilling is increasingly recognized as a critical need. Predrilling data would include measurements of groundwater and surface-water attributes, air quality, and human health. In this review, we have not covered the many critical issues of social and community impacts of the unconventional energy boom. One suggestion is to create a baseline community needs and assets assessment (CNAA) to address potential social impacts (164). The CNAA should identify what jobs will be available to local workers, develop citizen stakeholder forums and reporting mechanisms, update transportation planning and safety training, and implement strong consumer protections before drilling begins (164).
A fourth recommendation is to place particular focus on surface and near-surface activities rather than on what occurs deep underground. Surveys of groundwater contamination suggest that most incidents originate from the surface, including faulty wells, wastewater disposal, and spills and leaks from surface operations (60, 88, 165). These problems may be reduced through best management practices or regulations. There are additional risks associated with hydraulically fractured wells connecting with old, abandoned wells that are not properly sealed. Increased attention to improving well integrity in shale-gas operations and to potential interactions between hydraulic fracturing and abandoned wells would help reduce environmental risks and impacts.

And that these wells need to last forever, the cement and steel casings need to hold the gas and fracking fluids away from aquifers and routes to the surface FOREVER. At the very least, companies should be made to clean up after themselves and pay restoration bonds. Currently they do not.

"Lastly, we believe that state and federal governments are underinvesting in legacy funds in the United States, the European Union, and elsewhere for addressing future problems accompanying the unconventional energy boom. Drilling millions of new oil and natural gas wells will inevitably lead to future issues (e.g., see Section 4, above). Pennsylvania, for instance, currently has no severance tax on oil and gas production and took in only ?$200 million yearly in impact fees from 2011 to 2013. Most of this money was used to fund county and state operations, with $16 million from the fund allocated to current environmental initiatives in 2012 and 2013, including habitat restoration, flood protection, and P&A. To place these numbers in the broader context, Pennsylvania produced >$10 billion worth of natural gas in 2013 alone. At this rate, very little money will be available years to decades in the future when Marcellus and other wells age, leading to the kinds of shortfalls that some states face today from past industrial activities.
The biggest uncertainty of all is what the future energy mix across the world will be. Compared with coal, natural gas has many environmental benefits, and replacing old coal-fired power plants with new natural gas plants makes sense in places. However, natural gas and shale oil are still fossil fuels, releasing GHGs when burned. Will natural gas be a bridge fuel to a cleaner, renewables-based future? How long will the bridging take? Will natural gas be used to supplement renewables in the future or instead become the world's primary energy source? Will the unconventional energy boom lower energy prices, making conservation less valuable and slowing the adoption of renewables? Societies face difficult choices that can be informed by strong, interdisciplinary research. The answers to these questions will drive earth and environmental sciences for decades."

This report clearly shows that there are huge concerns about Unconventional Gas. Are you too blinded by the alleged economic benefits to see that?

OP posts:
peachgirl · 21/12/2014 10:39

TL;DR

are deeedeee and flipflop the same person but namechanged?

deeedeee · 21/12/2014 10:59

No, there's many many people concerned people across the uk, and the world. That's why there are bans and morartarims in many countries and states, as people realise that this industry is dangerous and in the rush for money, safety is being forgotten.

Are you and cat lady the same person? :-)

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caroldecker · 21/12/2014 12:09

Safety is not being forgotten - there are many uncertainties, which is why I linked to that source. If you require no risk to health then I recommend ypu never leave your bed.
What are the risks of not fracking- in no particular order and off the top of my head?

  1. Dependence on Russia, Saudi and other regimes with less than stellar human rights records
  2. Power cuts in the UK
  3. Continue to use coal, which has higher climate change impact. The US is, I think, the only country to meet its Kyoto target, due to fracked gas
  4. Deaths and accidents in the coal mines still open above
  5. Additional costs for heating in the UK, leading to greater fuel poverty and deaths of the elderly
emotionsecho · 21/12/2014 14:18

Indeed, carol, these magic 'renewable energy sources' are not so magic yet are touted as the answer to everything.

emotionsecho · 21/12/2014 14:28

If all these green energy solutions are so good for everyone why is it that the most vulnerable members of society, the elderly, the poor, the disabled, are the ones suffering due to the green taxes, and extortionate energy costs.

What about the impact on the environment caused by the production of so called environmentally friendly fuels.

flipflop21 · 21/12/2014 14:40

Caroldecker I'm not saying that no risk should be taken but taking sensible precautions like not fracking a damaged well is basic and was not been observed by the drilling company at Preese Hall. You cannot ignore that fact. You have not answered why if our regulatory system is so robust, it was allowed to happen.

Also how much gas would the uk need to produce to increase our independence - (in a market - where any gas we produce would be sold to the highest bidder not used necessarily in the UK)? Do you know how much gas each drilled well would produce and how many wells we would need? I suggest you find that out before supporting claims that fracking will stop the lights going out etc.

Deaths and accidents happen in any hazardous work place. Fracking effects health beyond the well pads and the sites they are based. It's not the onsite safety that is the significant problem. You may be misunderstanding the risks that are linked to the process.

There are also many concerns re methane leaks and greenhouse gases -as yet the impact of this is unknown.

I am not deeedeee. I am someone else.

caroldecker · 21/12/2014 16:11

Sorry - what damage happened at Preese Hall, a 2.3ml earthquake - in the last 50 days there have been 16 earthquakes in the UK, 5 of which measure over 2 and one on which was 2.6. UK earthquakes
Here is the utterly devestating effects on the local population of the 2.6 quake, including the quote felt slightly by some people. No damage to buildings
However, despite the lack of any damage from Preese Hall, it has been investigated and regulations tightened, with the govt going beyond what the company wanted. report here
On higher fuel costs with renewables and all, this Guardian report has 31,000 extra deaths a year.

So, to summarise.

We have some possible unknown but minor health risks and minor earthquakes, or 31,000 deaths a year from adding to heating bills.

It appears flipflop and deeedeee have come up with an excellent plan to reduce pension costs and make work for undertakers - possibly a family link in the business and wanting to help thier mates?

emotionsecho · 21/12/2014 16:43

carol maybe it's the green version of population control/eugenics?

deeedeee · 21/12/2014 16:46

Carol, I've got plenty to do today, I'm just quickly lolly at this on my phone. I'll come back later to reply to your points later. But had to say how offensive I find your blaming the poor's inability to heat their homes with our countries lack of fracking. The state should be providing help for those too poor to heat their homes. And the state should be finding a way to invest and develop renewable energy whilst keeping to their world wide climate change targets. Like other countries do. Unconvential gas is not an answer to poverty. Leave your politics out of this.

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deeedeee · 21/12/2014 16:49

And you still haven't commented on the New York compedium. Why do you think New York State, Quebec, France, holland, Czech etc have banned fracking?

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caroldecker · 21/12/2014 17:04

not read NY, will look - Would you enjoy living in a Communist state where the govt does everything? How much should it spend and who pays?
BTW, I find it offensive that you want old people to die.

caroldecker · 21/12/2014 17:17

Your NY link very independent - Concerned Health Professionals of New York is an initiative to amplify the voices of hundreds of health professionals in New York who have been calling on Governor Andrew Cuomo to conduct a comprehensive Health Impact Assessment (HIA) on high-volume horizontal hydraulic fracturing.
Try this
I have no idea why NY have put a moratorium on fracking - perhaps you have a link to the thoughts behind the descision.

CallMeExhausted · 21/12/2014 20:27

These threads are getting fracking frustrating - and very old.

Let me guess, you think wind turbines emit subsonic waves that cause vague and nonspecific illness, too - right?

flipflop21 · 21/12/2014 22:11

Sorry caroldecker but I'm getting a little bit annoyed as you're misreading what I said. The earthquake was tiny (and yes blah dee blah re a zillion earthquakes everywhere all the time..) but it was enough to damage the well and they were allowed to continue.

Yes they have put the traffic light system in place but who's checking? The fracking company - same as before.

What's this baloney about a communist state? That's completely unrelated extremist response.

So you think drilling a few fracking wells will save lives?

How many fracking wells do you have to drill to save lives? What infrastructure will be needed to support this? Do you know?

Go and find out and then come back an argue your case. Show me the numbers.

And if you like I can fish out research re health issues etc. Just say the word.

flipflop21 · 21/12/2014 22:33

Caroldecker - you really should read your links. the one you linked to actually says:

"However, done poorly production can be prone to accidents and leakage, contribute to environmental degradation, induce earthquakes, and, when externalities are accounted for, produce more net economic losses than profits. The study concludes that the pursuit and utilization of shale gas thus presents policymakers, planners, and investors with a series of pernicious tradeoffs and tough choices."

?

caroldecker · 21/12/2014 22:57

I do read my links. They are, unlike yours, balanced. Fracking is not the saviour of the human race nor is it the devil. It is one more piece in the complex energy puzzle to provide the energy we all demand at a price we can all afford.
You spout extremist shit and I will match you. If you want a balanced view, read my links and accept that, in the right place, fracking is an important part of our energy solution.

flipflop21 · 21/12/2014 23:04

Caroldecker - what links are you referring to? I 've only linked to Wytch Farm? I'm not spouting any extemist shit. I've not said anything radical at all.

I've just asked some questions which you've not been able to answer. I'm still waiting.

flipflop21 · 21/12/2014 23:21

Brew....still waiting...

deeedeee · 22/12/2014 00:35

I'm not spouting extremist shit either. I've been very careful to not post anything extreme, biased or unscientific . I 've been very careful only to link to independant studies. Which the NY compedium is. I have not scaremongered atall, unlike yourself with your pensioner killing chat.

NY and other places have banned it as fracking for natural gas can’t be done safely. It's risks can't be regulated away. It is too inherently risky. Because The state's health commissioner, Howard Zucker, said there is not enough scientific information to conclude that fracking is safe.

"The potential risks are too great, in fact not even fully known, and relying on the limited data presently available would be negligent on my part,"

There are links in my first post to the judgement.

Even if I agreed with you that Uncoventional gas would be an economic and energy panacea, which there is little evidence for , then it is still to inherently risky to go ahead with. This is our drinking water, the air we breath, the soil we farm on. It's our health! The studies you link to all show these risks clearly. Why are you not seeing them

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caroldecker · 22/12/2014 01:37

I see risks, people die in car accidents, we don't ban cars. People die in falls, we don't ban stairs. People die in accidental poisoning, we don't ban bleach.

Nothing is 100% safe. The question is, is fracking safe enough? I believe it is, along with many scientists, engineers, experts and governments.

You do not, and you have some people on your side.

At then end of the day, there is enough evidence to say that:

  1. No-one has died from fracking
  2. Gas prices in the Us have fallen significantly since large scale fracking was introduced
  3. The US will be the only country to meet Kyoto targets because of fracking
  4. The US is now producing more oil than Saudi and Russia
  5. US gas import terminals are being converted to export terminals
  6. Grangemouth has continued as it is importing US shale gas, so maintianing jobs and revenue
  7. 31,000 people died from fuel poverty last year in the UK
  8. Renewables have added £30 to household bills and will continue to do so.

I do not see how this evidence 'utterly disagrees with the government's stance'.

flipflop21 · 22/12/2014 08:12

Ok - I dispute some of what you have said there, but you have still not addressed a highly significant issue and that is ..

How many wells will be required to be drilled in the UK in order to make the impact on prices and energy security that you seem to think will take place? And what infrastructure will need to be in place in order to support them?

This question is important: do you have any idea of the scale of activity that will be required in order to produce any significant amount of gas or oil from shale?

deeedeee · 22/12/2014 09:39

Yes I agree Carol, it's a polarising argument, and as with all things there is "evidence" on either side of the debate.

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