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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

obesity as a disability is very damaging for the truely disabled

146 replies

twoopsie · 19/12/2014 09:13

So now the EU says that obisity can be treated as a disability.

Sets a worrying precedence. Does anyone remember that episode of the Simpsons.

Before people start flaming me with genuine medical reasons for obesity, these are a very small minority but obviously do exist and the obesity is a side affect, not the aliment.

OP posts:
aprilanne · 19/12/2014 22:14

ok the back ground is my hubby is seriously ill with a condition .not of his own making .he has lost his job his dignity and everything else .he is a med /large build .i am a big lass .am i disabled .is this someone else,s fault .should i blame the government /society .should i get DISABILITY BENEFITS .no because all that is wrong with me is i like bloody cake /sweet things .this is just ridicoulous .from a size 18/20 mother of 3 .

TalkinPeace · 19/12/2014 22:23

Latara
The weight aspects of many drugs are well known : but they can be fought.
I know people on a similar mix to yourself who have kept up the weight training : and exercise gives the route out.
Hard, but doable

minipie · 19/12/2014 22:33

What about alcoholism or drug addiction? Is that/will that become a disability?

WoodliceCollection · 19/12/2014 22:36

Well, OP, I have a 'real disability' (in fact a couple) as defined by qualified NHS consultants, and I am in no way damaged by this judgement. Nor do I find it in the least offensive.

Therefore, empirically, you are wrong. It's not so much that you're being unreasonable, because there is nothing here for you to be reasonable or unreasonable about; it is a very obvious fact that obesity can affect people's physical abilities just as it is a fact that not having an arm could affect someone's physical abilities. You are just being stupid.

aprilanne · 19/12/2014 22:37

minipie those addictions are already classed as disabilitys .well you get disability benefits .and DLA /PIP .SICKENING I KNOW .but true .i am a nurse so know through my work the benefits system .

aprilanne · 19/12/2014 22:40

woodlice its true being fat can be restrictive .but most of the time its your own fault .like alcoholism /drug addiction .being fat is self inflicted .

naty1 · 19/12/2014 22:59

I completely agree with talkinpeace and timetoask.
It isnt always anything.
My DP is border overweight/obese.
No reason at all.
He likes food.

I eat same foods and im less than 9st. I just dont snack so much. He knows this and isnt bothered about losing weight. He easily could if bothered.
Its not Mh, drugs, alcohol etc. foods are so full of calories.
The only thing i think is its environment as his DDad is quite a sweet/sugar pusher to everyone. And always stocked with cakes/chocolate.

With the rate of increase in obesity there is no way to pay for the care/DLA of all these people so its immaterial if they want/deserve it because it wont be available.
Imacgmooh shows they all lose weight easily in a calorie restricted environment.
I agree employers restricting cakes/drinks choc machines would be a good start as what could be worse in an already sedentary job than an extra 100 cals a day from office cakes.
I dont know about thyroid disorders.
I was told i cant gave it im too thin! What a way to diagnose. No symptoms discussed or tests. I do now have it. But ultimately you have to eat to your height/frame/metabolism,activity abilities/health issues. Yes you may not be able to scoff the cakes you want to, but i think very few people can or do. Keep a constant eye on it and adjust intake as soon as some is gained.
I dont think the suggested calories for men or women are particularly helpful a more tailored to individual as above would help.
When i was at school it was almost all worries over anorexia as everyone wanted to be as thin as possible. Now everyone cares about wearing loads of makeup but not at all about their bodies.
How come if its all depression, health issues there is so much more of it now?
Its clearly environmental.
How will 1/4 healthy weight people support the larger percentage of people with health issues?

ChippingInLovesChristmasLights · 19/12/2014 23:07

Aprilanne. You are a nurse? God help us all.

PausingFlatly · 19/12/2014 23:16

No one gets PIP (or DLA as was) merely for being alcoholic or an addict.Hmm

If you've broken your back falling downstairs while drunk, then you might get PIP. Just the same as if you fell downstairs while standing on one leg painting the stairwell, or rescuing a kitten.

Ditto if you have severe mental health problems and dementia caused by alcohol, just as caused by anything else.

WhyTheFace · 19/12/2014 23:17

Hmm at aprilanne being a nurse and misspelling disabilities. FFS, put some effort in!

MiscellaneousAssortment · 20/12/2014 01:28

No one gets benefits for just a diagnosis. People get / don't get benefits and help on the grounds of how those illnesses effect them personally. It's about the effects, not the germ/gene/etc itself.

I think some people are radically over estimating the level of help or adjustments given to disabled people... And therefore what impact recognising obesity in the astray of things that can cause disability would have.

The criteria for being disabled enough to get help of any kind, is shockingly high. Fat people who need a different kind of chair to be comfortable wouldn't exactly make it high on the list. No way they'd be taking funds off someone else. There are no funds available for anyone needing such a miniscule thing. And by the time obesity would be causing such major problems to allow access to help and benefits, the impact on health would be major and then you're not really talking about fat, but about major organ damage etc.

Reminds me of the way officialdom dealt with HIV/AIDS in the 90s. Death certificates would say pneumonia/ TB etc to draw a veil over the shame and blame of it. And it would be true in a way, as having AIDS would mean that the immune system was so compromised and therefore pneumonia would develop from a very minor bug, and kill the poor person. Classifying deaths and hospital admittance etc in this way was really necessary in situations where haiV had such stigma, insurance companies would openly screen out such distasteful 'lifestyle diseases' etc. I can imagine similar scenarios where fatness is so despised and penalised, that the kind would find ways to avoid linking it with any health or disability problems. Or even just to avoid breaking their hippocratic oath.

Anyway, I digress!

Work adjustments are not an easy area to discuss, as it depends on so many variables, but taking one of the scenarios mentioned on this thread... A fat person not fitting into a normal chair with arm rests. The solution is very unlikely to be a break the bank kind of adjustment. In the first instance it would be taking the arms off the chair, or ensuring there was one armless chair in each meeting room, or giving the prison the flexibility to use a sofa or bench. The 'right to reasonable adjustments' is not about breaking the business or giving someone a cushy privaleged work life. The majority of adjustments can be done without major spending, although in my experience, companies tend to favour tangible adjustments which involve a one off payment of some kind. It's a hell of a lot easier than attitude and behaviour change!

Anyway, work adjustments are one small part of a wider picture of the support a disabled person may need. These two sources of support I think are the litmus test of disability thresholds. I haven't looked at disability unemployment benefits to get away from the wider debate around unemployment and feckless thieves!

The dla/ pip or access to care/ direct payments. Both are about disabled people in society, helping people live life like everyone else does, as much as possible. They're not instead of working... Which I think people don't really understand. And they are both absolutely essential, making the difference between life or death for many people accessing them.

Now, I will admit on here that I get higher rate DLA (God willing it carries on next year), and employ a few carers with Direct Payments (& have a whole host of adjustments in order to work including working from my bed majority of the time) ... But I also work AND pay higher rate tax. I am also a mother, an employer. I pay HMRC for my employees (tax and NI), as well as employers national insurance contribution.

However, I really struggle, exist in a state of permanent and intolerable choices (eat OR wash, cuddle my child OR do my exercises etc. didn't bathe or wash my hair for 5 months this year, it was foul & humiliating)

This really fucks people's heads up!

Which group do I belong to? The scrounger or the strivver, the asset or the dead weight, scum or 'one of you'?

Without this help I couldn't function, let alone actually work. I'd either be dead or in an institution, and my child would be in foster care. And that would cost a lot more..I live right on the edge of managing/ complete collapse. My health often comes bottom of the list as just to keep basic functionality I have to prioritise other things over physio or consultants. Especially physio unfortuneately. Getting to each appointment causes such damage that I just can't absorb - physically or practically.

Imagine what any pressure on that fragile Eco system would do... Everything comes tumbling down, permanently. And imagine the years of battling to get any help/ support. It just wouldn't have happened if I had anything other than a massively complex, severe and deteriorating health condition, or if I hadn't battled and diverted every bit of resource to the cause. You don't just turn up and get it! In fact I can't even 'turn up' as I cannot even get to the council offices...

If someone decides that I want to live like this, or am stopping myself being well by my choices... Well they can do a running jump. But if they took away support until I lost weight, or made myself better... I would die, not revive!

And can you really imagine someone who's simply obese ever getting support and help... It just wouldn't happen.

MiscellaneousAssortment · 20/12/2014 01:29

Drat got brain fog & waffles tooo much- sorry!

Italiangreyhound · 20/12/2014 01:50

MiscellaneousAssortment I am so sorry to hear your story. Did you stay in that job or did you leave it? Have you heard of constructional dismissal?

notthatshesaid also so sorry to hear your story but well done on working out what was wrong and getting help.

Italiangreyhound · 20/12/2014 01:56

I am obese, I have been about 4-5 stone overweight and have a long standing issue with food/eating which I am finally working through with a good counsellor and going to Overeaters Anonymous www.oagb.org.uk/

On route I have tried many things, joining a gym, going to Christian things like New ID, which was a helpful starting point New ID and joining slimming clubs (I am sure slimming clubs work for some people but not for all or even most in the long run).

When I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes I was so angry with myself (despite seeking help in a wide variety of ways for my weight - tried about 8 different things over almost 4 years). And my father had diabetes so it does run in the family. The diabetic nurse and dietician made it clear that this was not my fault. Certainly my GP felt the most useful thing was to use the anger and unhappiness to find a change. Being shamed by others rarely works. I do feel sad that no one ever managed to point me at the help I really needed. It was something for me I had to find for myself.

That is part of my reason for posting, to say that for me Overseaters Anonymous (OA) has been a huge help.

Counselling has helped too but I know it can be costly. I am very lucky to be in a situation where I can see a counsellor who is working voluntarily.

For the average person who does not manage to get counselling I think OA can be a huge help too.

I wish the government and NHS put more money and energy into helping people find a solution that really works. I also wish they taxed unhealthy food and drink more and put the money into the NHS!

Regarding OA, there are lots of groups, the times are short, just an hour maybe once a week or one can go more often. It is free, just donations asked for to pay for the venue rent etc. Of course you can buy the book which is a few pounds but really once you start to feel better you are saving so much money in food you do not buy!

The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions of Overeaters Anonymous

Of course for me this came on top of having years of info about health, diet exercise. Even with that info I still needed to find a path through personally.

I started a thread and if anyone would like to come and join me, please do www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eating_disorders/2226309-Overeaters-Anonymous-anyone-anonymously-out-there-want-to-share

Italiangreyhound · 20/12/2014 02:03

Sorry MiscellaneousAssortment think I cross posted with you there.

Sorry, too, that post is off track from the thread! So to get back on track, I think being obese can definitely cause you to be disabled, so in that sense it can be a disability (IMHO). Does not mean you are automatically disabled.

So I do agree with the statement as it was reported on the BBC "Obesity can constitute a disability in certain circumstances, the EU's highest court has ruled."

Most people who overeat until they are obese or morbidly obese do not (I feel sure) eat because they enjoy it or want to eat.

For me my eating is an eating disorder. I think a lot of people who are obese probably have some sort of eating disorder, but this is just my humble opinion.

Even at my largest I was able to use a normal chair/airline seat/etc etc and do my job. What if I could not? There must be safety issues too, and these things should be factored in. I remember the day I nearly could not get on a fair ground ride, they were offering the extensive seat belt! I felt this would be a turning point! I sucked it up, quite literally and got onto the ride. It was not a turning point. I would say that fits into the 'shaming' although they did it for very valid reasons, they wanted me to be safe on the ride for everyone's sake.

I feel safety needs to be a priority. It should not be about how people look etc. It is about health and safety but the individual needs to be given opportunities to tackled their own issues. I wish the government made more of a priority of this, because long run it would save, I feel sure, so much money for the NHS and probably so many lives.

Good luck with anyone who is struggling.

maggiethemagpie · 20/12/2014 03:56

I used to have a food addiction. Still do, a little bit. I was never morbidly obese but I know that food issues can run deep and mine were all linked to childhood trauma and psychological issues.

I do wish priority would be given to treating the cause rather than the effect ie psychological causes.

It's very hard to be taken seriously as eating disordered unless you are starving or barfing.

crumblebumblebee · 20/12/2014 09:46

I wish people would think before they share their assumptions that Uncle John is just greedy, he doesn't have a MH issue. You have no idea if he does or does not!

twats

aprilanne · 20/12/2014 15:28

CHIPPING yes i am a very caring nurse .but it does not stop me from being human and understanding that a lot of these conditions are self inflicted .as i said i am no slim thing but thats my fault no one elses. i would never tell my patients in my care its there own fault .but i can,t help but think it .

aprilanne · 20/12/2014 15:31

PAUSING FLATLY .i am sorry but people do get disability benefits for being an alcoholic/drug addict .because they can,t work because of there conditions .i have helped my patients at work fill in the forms .AND SOME OF THEM ARE SO PLEASED THEY GET IT AS WELL .i work in a rehab unit for nhs .addictions .drugs/alcohol /food .that sort of thing .

PausingFlatly · 20/12/2014 15:55

DLA and PIP are towards the extra costs of living borne by disabled people.

They are not out-of-work benefits. In fact often they help people to work.

You may talking about out-of-work benefits like ESA? That can be awarded to people whose addictions are sufficiently debilitating that they can't work.

But I would expect someone who claims she fills in the forms and shouts about how she knows all this stuff to, well, know all this stuff.

Oh, and as before, it's not a judgement on whether condition X should be called a disability. It's a judgement of level of debility. Functioning addicts need not apply. So no, I don't find it sickening that someone whose addiction has damaged them so much they can no longer function receives ESA. I feel sorry for them and wish they'd received more support earlier on. If I did anything else, I'd have to go down the route of being sickened by all those people injured in sports, injured in most road accidents, smokers, people who don't go jogging...

specialsubject · 20/12/2014 16:48

sorry if this has been mentioned (couldn't find it) but Melanie Reid has written about this today. She is tetraplegic following a fall from a horse, and says how much it upsets her to see healthy people wrecking that good health by getting fat.

Reid recognises that there are some people who are fat through no fault of her own (as an example Camilla Batmanghelidjh is also in the same paper, she is very big due to an endocrine disorder which makes her retain fluid) but that the majority of fat people are fat for the obvious and controllable reason.

now, some might say that Reid's injury was her fault because riding can be dangerous. These are doubtless the same ones who think any sports injury is self-inflicted and we should all stay on the sofa.

I think we all owe it to each other to look after ourselves as much as possible. This means that we can make the best use of allowances, treatment and help by directing it to those whose problem is not their fault. And that of course includes those with mental health issues. That might also mean earlier treatment for eating disorders which could stop someone getting disabled through their obesity. (look up the sad story of the late Keith Martin)

in short; if we are lucky enough to have good mental and physical health; don't guzzle, move around more, don't smoke, and minimise the drugs.

raltheraffe · 20/12/2014 17:04

aprilanne if you are a real nurse you are not fit to practice. Your attitude absolutely stinks and I pity your patients.
I doubt you are a real nurse though because I have friends who have been through IP rehab and I do not know of one NHS rehab in the country that deals with food addictions as well as illicit drugs.
I have been in an eating disorder unit. I do not have an eating disorder but I was detained under a Section 2 MHA and there were no acute psych beds so I had to stay there temporarily. EDUs treat people with binge eating disorder, there was a lad on the unit with it.
Private rehabs deal with eating addictions but on the NHS people with problems with food go to EDUs.
You sound like a nasty judgmental piece of work.

aprilanne · 20/12/2014 17:58

ralthereraffe .lets get one thing straight i am a nurse .in scotland addictions .other mental health problems are all dealt with in the same unit .you can have some one trying to come off heroin along with some poor sod with anorexia .or an over eating addiction .its terrible .we only have a few real eating disorder beds in the whole of forth valley so they get put in with general phsycy ward .in my opinion there should be different wards for genuine mental health problems .one for drug /alcohol addiction and a specialised eating disorder clinics in all hospitals .but mental health is the most under funded of all the nhs services well in scotland anyway .so you tell your bloody friends that .if they want the name of hospital feel free to ask .

MiscellaneousAssortment · 20/12/2014 17:59

People certainly do not get benefits just because they are an addict. Just as people don't get benefits just because they have any specific diagnosis.

It's based on the effect that having a condition has and which will vary according to the individual, and their individual circumstances.

I'm afraid I can absolutely believe that a nurse could be judgemental, like any profession, and maybe more than some due to compassion fatigue.

I had nurses who deliberately withheld prescribed medicines each night, and had to be talked to several times then disciplined. In the end they were taken off my care as they couldn't be trusted to carry out the doctors instructions.

The excuse was that they didn't think I should be on such high levels of pain medication as 'the other patients weren't allowed it so why should I'. Didn't like the 'special treatment' I got! Well I didn't like the reasons for the 'special treatment' either! And as I screamed in pain begging them to help they called me names and lied to me. You can't imagine my relief when I found out that it wasn't that the drugs were failing (like so many had before), but I'd been taken off them cold turkey. Disgusting, cruel and actually very dangerous.

Point being, being a nurse doesn't make you into an enlightened person (although of course there are many amazing nurses too)

TinklyLittleLaugh · 20/12/2014 18:11

The majority of people with heart conditions have them because of lifestyle choices. Ditto people disabled by type two diabetes and smoking related illness? Not to mention many forms of cancer.

Are we really going to to stop considering people with these problems as disabled? Most acquired disability is the result of lifestyle choice.

Melanie Reid's disabilities are the result of her choices. Of course she didn't intend to fall off her horse but she knew the risks as well as someone overeating knows the risks. She just didn't think disability would happen to her. Well surprise, surprise, neither do most overweight people.

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