obesity as a disability is very damaging for the truely disabled

[twoopsie]

So now the EU says that obisity can be treated as a disability.

Sets a worrying precedence. Does anyone remember that episode of the Simpsons.

Before people start flaming me with genuine medical reasons for obesity, these are a very small minority but obviously do exist and the obesity is a side affect, not the aliment.

TheListingAttic I don't disagree with you but I'm not sure you address the point. What do you do if one of your employees becomes unable to carry out their work because they have acquired a disability? Being able to address underlying cause is one thing, but we also need to deal with practicalities of their currently disabled status.

The idea that obesity itself is a disability is an insult to the disabled and the obese person

Good job that's not what the report says then.

stillwearingaredribbon I think that's pretty much what the actual ruling was, wasn't it?

MaidOfStars If it's a question of a reversible condition that's causing a disability which need only be temporary if the underlying issue is addressed, then an employer should support them and facilitate addressing the cause as they would an illness. If someone has a treatable illness that's making them so unwell they can't do their job properly, an employer should make reasonable allowances for, for example, medical appointments and treatment. I'm not for a minute suggesting obese people should just be told to crack on and stop being obese, but think an employer's duty should be towards facilitating recovery, not facilitating obesity. If that makes sense.

Erm, no? at 10:30:06

Why not, TheListingAttic?

You've just said the issue is reversibility.

And that something that can (in your opinion) "be tackled, and the problem overcome" then that's "unlike an actual disability."

I give you an example that meets your criteria, and now you say that person is disabled?

There's a huge swathe of the population who, at a conscious or subconsious level, believe that illness and disability are caused by someone not trying hard enough.

And thus conclude that doing anything to assist a disabled person is "encouraging" them to be disabled, and if only you stopped enabling them they'd take up their bed and walk.

It's enshrined in recent political thinking, too, where people like IDS (and others) have said that giving benefits to people too disabled to work causes them to become dependent.

Whereas in fact they're unable to work and are dependent regardless. They won't suddenly start earning their living if you make them destitute: they just die.

OP, could you please come back and set out exactly your criteria for 'true disability'
Then we can attempt to ascertain whether or not obesity can be considered a true disability ?

PausingFlatly I'm sorry, you've lost me. You suggested I was taking it upon myself to decide what was and wasn't reversible based on my experience of my neighbour's cat's mother. I said no that's not what I was suggesting. And now you're asking why not? Eh?

Also, no one on this thread has said anything about 'encouraging' disability. On this thread, people have been distinguishing between disability and obesity. You seem to have gone off on a bit of tangent...

TheListingAttic, you've just said:

"an employer's duty should be towards facilitating recovery, not facilitating obesity."

Let me rephrase my post to match yours more closely, if it wasn't clear enough:

"And thus conclude that doing anything to assist a disabled person is "facilitating" them to be disabled, and if only you stopped enabling them they'd take up their bed and walk."

If that was what the ruling said then I don't see any issue
I was responding to the OP not the ruling

I think that it can be a disability and perhaps by treating it as such those suffering will get the help and support that they need
Depression can be counted as a disability when severe enough but with treatment can be managed and betterment can be found
Perhaps obesity if treated kindly will go the same way

As usual I was annoyed by this on the news because it didn't tell the whole story and therefore to comment is difficult.

In terms of the individual who won the court case, he became so obese that he could no longer do his job. If therefore you are a footballer and you say, get older or get obese and can no longer play football should a team be forced to keep you employed? No because you are no longer capable of doing your job.

BUT was he no longer capable? All they said was that he couldn't tie the kids shoe laces because he could no longer bend over. Who knows.
Should on obese person get disability benefits, if it disables them, I suppose so, yes. Many already suffer the awful health side effects of obesity, heart problems, breathing problems, high blood pressure and can be registered disabled anyway.

Is a person who made themselves fat any less deserving of assitance than a crippled person who is in a wheelchair because they drunk drove there car into a ditch? Its just easier to identify and blame the obese person I guess?
Lastly is obesity not a mental condition just as depression, anorexia, etc is? Are there any other mental conditions that are classified as disabilities? dont know that one either.
Sorry bunch of questions which harks back to my opening line 'I dont know the whole story'

And again, simplified so there can be no claim not to have understood:

TheListingBudget are you going to point to someone with a "reversible" injury, and decide that they could have been walking again if they'd done more physiotherapy, therefore they are not disabled? Even if they use a wheelchair and have done so for 5 years?

PausingFlatly

Still not sure what you're driving at. I'm reading your posts and you appear to be attributing an attitude to me that I don't recognise.

I broadly agree with everything you said in your post at 12:25:09, but can't see how it plugs into the question of whether obesity counts as a disability or a different sort of health condition.

""I refuse to consider in he future that I may have to hire an obese person under the disability act.""

The act has never stated that a disabled person has to be hired.

It states that employers should make reasonable adjustments.

The society that we live in was set up for fully "able" people, because anyone who didn't fit that criteria were sent to institutions.

That includes LD's/MH issues, as well as physical disabilities.

All these rulings do is look for society to keep up with medical advancements and keep society inclusive.

When we closed the institutions, people fought for those with disabilities to be entitled to take their place as members of society and be afforded a quality of life that most of us take for granted.

I'm obese, at the moment because of medical issues, including the Menopause. I still walk my dog twice a day and attend the gym. I even look Human.

You can be obese and still be under a size 16 ( which I am).

As for morbid obesity, hospital/other appointments are needed, so all this ruling ensures is that the person can attend these and follow the plan given (adjustments around meal breaks may be needed).

I've worked in adult disabilities, a lot of conditions, some Cancers can be classed as self inflicted.

I've seen two people put on Peg feeds, one looks like a skeleton and the other becomes obese, same with some medications.

Tackling Obesity really should be left to the experts.

The recent programme following Consultants on a Obesity Ward/Clinic was fascinating and should of been on at Prime time, to get rid of the Myths and educate people why it does become a real medical issue that needs/deserves treatment and legislation.

X post.

No, I'm not going to do that, nor has anything I've posted suggested I would. All I've said is that, under those circumstances, the person in question should be supported in accessing that treatment - employers (and indeed local authorities) should help ensure they are able to adequately access that treatment.

You seem to be arguing against a position I haven't put forward. I think your anger might be getting in the way of your reading comprehension skills.

sherbertpips, it's completely legal to sack someone for being disabled if they can't do the job even with reasonable adjustments.

The protections (IIUC) are around ensuring you've looked at reasonable adjustments first, and at redeployment. And about not discriminating at the point of recruitment (although that's usually hard to prove so of limited use).

Also, if it is recognised in some circumstances, as a disability, then that will allow those targeted, because they are obese, to bring in charges of "Hate speech" etc.

I lived next door to a Morbidly Obese person, through medical treatments (not that it should matter) and what she was subjected to daily was horrendous.

I'm not surprised that she developed Agoraphobia. The HA was under no obligation to help her relocate.

My youngest has SN and some if her friends, who are obese through conditions, are regularly verbally abused.

This is about looking at the person as a whole and the social side of disability, which has been to long coming.

It's looking at the environmental etc factors which further disable people.

would a consequence be that obese people then get disability allowance (benefits)?

What consequences does it have to get the "disability" label.

More like yours, TheListingAttic.

You say above, for all to read, at 10:21:54
"Surely the issue is reversibility... But it can be tackled, and the problem overcome. Unlike an actual disability."

I give you an example that fits your criterion of reversibility, of being able to be tackled... arising from a car crash. To which your response (at 13:05:01) is oh no, you wouldn't consider that eg to be someone who isn't disabled.

So you don't seem to really mean what you said about reversibility, do you?

Nobody gets disability allowance for a label (with I think the exception of some deal for cancer patients undergoing inpatient chemo).

Disability benefits are assessed on the actual impact of health issues on an individual's day to day life. The thresholds are pretty high, so eg being in pain or out of breath after walking 200 m wouldn't actually trigger any.

Sorry, that last was to Chandon.

Getting back to TheListingAttic - what I'm driving at is that you seem to be treating obesity differently to other impairments. You try to rationalise this, but actually your rationalisation doesn't work.

I am quite fat! not enough to be classed as obese I don't think but I am fat and it's not healthy.
I recognise it is my fault but it's not as simple as " eat less" or exercise more.
I actually don't eat much, my GP asked me to keep a food diary and then basically accused me of lying as I didn't eat enough to be so overweight - I have had under active Thyroid ruled out. Nobody wakes up one morning and finds they are fat, it happens gradually and then tackling it seems impossible so I don't subscribe to the theory that being obese is lazy or easily preventAble etc.
However, it is NOT a disability in itself, although it can trigger diseases that lead to disability. If most people in wheelchairs or who are blind were told they could " cure " themselves with a lifestyle change I imagine they would - even if it was really difficult.
I think that this ruling helps nobody at all

I agree with the poster uncomfortable about the fault/no fault discrimination between disabilities.

I think it's unreasonable to assume that 'genuine' reasons for obesity are 'a very small minority'. There are numerous conditions that are very common and can have a significant effect on a person's weight, such as diabetes (insulin causes weight gain), arthritis (pain leads to immobility and weight gain) and depression (low mood leads to lack of exercise and sometimes comfort eating, and hence weight gain). So that's just three conditions, all of which are very common, that can be genuine reasons for obesity. Clearly not a very small minority.

Add to this the social factors, such as personal histories of abuse, and you can see why people might have difficulties with their weight. According to the NSPCC, one in four young people up to the age of 24 has been abused. According to Rape Crisis, one in six women has been raped. According to Women's Aid, the lifetime risk of domestic violence is one in four. Weight gain is a common response to trauma. And of course men can be traumatised too. You can't tell when you see an obese person what kind of suffering they might have experienced.

So maybe those people who think the obese are lazy and greedy should check their privilege, inform themselves, and consider treating people with a bit more compassion.

(Since we're being pernickety, I should correct my post at 13:38:03 from "obesity" to "obesity-related impairments". Wouldn't want to be unclear.)