to think it's wrong for a dead woman to be used as an incubator?

[twofingerstoGideon]

One of the most dreadful stories I've read in a long time. Could be triggering.

'Clinically dead' (that's dead, isn't it?) woman kept on life support machine to support 17 week fetus. Her own parents want the life support switched off. I really can't get my head around this at all.

AIBU to think we need to do everything possible to prevent our abortion laws becoming more restrictive and fight against the anti-choice demonstrators who are becoming more and more vociferous and ever-present outside clinics.

Surely even the most staunch anti-choicer can't argue that this is right.

story here

What this is very much depends on the odds of the baby surviving and being healthy.

If it does then it is an amazing miracle.

If it doesn't then it is rather monstrous.

The trouble is that medical science is moving on so fast and this type of thing happens so rarely that probably nobody quite knows for sure.

Fwiw if it was my body and my baby I'd want the baby to have a chance. But tbh I'd be happy for a stranger's baby to be stuck in my life supported body if it gave it a chance of life. I'm an organ donor, a blood donor, a bone marrow donor and a breast milk donor. If I don't need it, you can have it!

The woman is dead. She will be just as dead if her parents bury her in 23 weeks as she will be if they bury her tomorrow. She will be dead if she carries her baby to term, she will be dead if she doesn't. A dead person has no rights. So this is not about a women's rights, nor is it about abortion.

The real question is, what is the chance of this baby surviving? If it's likely to die, this a bit like Frankenstein's monster.

I'm as pro-choice as they come, but seeing as how the mother has no choice either way, it should defer to the right of the baby.

If it were my baby, I'd want my body kept alive to give it a chance. Let something good to come from my death. I won't be any less dead either way.

On a side note, does Ireland have a living will of sorts where you can sign in advance if you want to be on life support or resuscitated?

I also think there is a grim irony that, during a time when health care is in crisis in Ireland, resources are being directed into keeping a woman's body functioning after her death. This article gives a flavour of how badly women fare in the Irish health system, especially in perinatal care. My own experiences of maternity services were pretty poor and I had unremarkable pregnancies and deliveries.

The following is a quote from an official government inquiry into the dreadful conditions at one hospital:

"Mothers (of deceased babies) were not necessarily accommodated away from other mothers who had delivered babies; practices with regard to handling, holding, dressing, bathing, and photographing their infants were at best variable; appropriately sized-coffins were not always made available. The transport of infants in the boot of taxis to Tullamore Hospital for post-mortem examination was one especially distressing finding. Some of the comments attributed to staff who dealt with the families in these circumstances also added to the distress"

We need to sort this out before forcing a non-ideal pregnancy on a dead woman.

As a Mother, I know with absolute certainty that with each of my pregnancies, if I had died and my baby had a chance to live, I would have made this choice for myself. Obviously she is not in a position to, but those making the decisions probably realise a lot of Mums would feel that way.

Do you have a child OP? If you do, and you had 'died' during pregnancy, can you not think that you would have wanted that child to have a chance of life?

Thanks for the link NeverFinish. I suspect the Court are intimidated by the prospect of meddling with Irish religious beliefs...

Aside from the legal issues (and I believe the State are going about this upside down by looking at it from the viewpoint of the unborn foetus rather than the right of the deceased not to have unauthorised medical intervention and bodily autonomy after her death), this is the stuff of nightmares. Have people actually gone mad? In what sort of society is keeping a dead woman alive, potentially for months with machines, because there is a tiny chance of a "little Irish baby" (as described by one of the comments in the OP's link).

It's a tough one. If I knew I was going to die during pregnancy I would absolutely want to be kept 'alive' in order for my baby to live. I would want to leave my family one last gift before i finally went.

But at the same time I would also want my death to be as easy on my family as possible.I imagine it would be very hard to accept the death of a loved one if they are kept artificially alive. How do you grieve for a person who is still lying in a hospital bed?Knowing they are still there but you will still never hear their voice again or see them smile. Surely that would just torment you? It would me.

I don't know a lot about this situation but someone upthread mentioned limbs going stiff, cracked and smelly. I can say now without a shadow of a doubt that i wouldn't want that for someone i loved and I wouldn't want that for the hospital staff dealing with said person either. Especially if what a PP said was true and that their isn't a high chance the baby will make it anyway.

I'm well and truly on the fence here.

I thinks it's worth bearing in mind the points made about how truthful the article may be though. Like most things in the media, you just don't know how much it's been twisted.

Not reading any further. I speak as a mum who lost a foetus at 20 weeks but was too young to be viable so they refused to help my child when she was born too early. 16 years ago at Christmas. :(

You only have to read the comment above yours, TheChandler. Lots of people only think of themselves and their wishes, without considering practicality or the wishes and choices of other people.

I'll give you yet another example of the state of Irish politics: there was a parliamentary debate last night about whether a referendum should be held re repealing the amendment in question. The bill was soundly defeated but a significant number of TDs (MPs) were absent from the debate because "the labour party Christmas party was on". That's how much they care... here

"I suspect the Court are intimidated by the prospect of meddling with Irish religious beliefs..."

The majority of people in Ireland are no longer practicing Catholics (though many may be culturally so), the only people alive now who actually voted for the 8th amendment are all over 50. Any attempts by referendum to make our laws even more restrictive since then (denying the right to travel, explicitly saying that the right to life stems from conception and not implantation, etc.) have been rejected by the people. We haven't actually had an opportunity to remove the 8th.

I know this law is barbaric, but I do get more than a bit pissed off when it's portrayed outside Ireland in a "what do you expect, they're all rabid priest-ridden Catholics and support this for religious reasons" stylee.

The issue is that whilst the mother may be brain stem dead, she has not actually died - she is still alive. Were that the case there would be no issue as the fetus would also have died whether delivered or not.

The mother is being kept alive and therefore subjected to medical intervention that is not in her best interests, she cannot consent to and are against the wishes of her family.

Whilst one could argue that it may have been what she would have wanted, there is really no way to know. Even if she had not wanted to be kept alive and her wishes were known, according to law the state would have gone against those wishes because her life is not at risk, denying the right to bodily autonomy in favour of the unborn fetus.

I'm Irish, and Pro Choice (for others but there is only one option for me personally).
I would want to give my unborn baby a chance. But I know that if DH struggled, his family and my family would step in to help. I also know that both families would want to give the baby a chance.

Tough position to be in. Especially now that's it is news.

CakeAndWine

I have a child and I would not want to be kept alive to give it a chance at life.

It seems quite clear to me why this is about abortion- the foetus has rights (hence you can not abort it) and it's these rights which are being enforced, resulting in the mother being used as a vessel until the baby most likely dies naturally. Its barbaric.

Maybe the parents knew it was an unplanned pregnancy, one she wasn't going to get a lot of support from the father, wasn't happy about it. But of course, being Ireland she wouldn't have had a whole pile of options, would she? Perhaps that's one of the reasons why a) they don't want to go down this line, and b) there's been no mention of the dad. If it were a planned pregnancy (or even a happy surprise) then they might be more amenable, but it seems like they may be trying to promote their daughter's wishes here.

If she'd died at 20-24 weeks plus gestation I'd be more supportive of "giving the baby a chance", but this seems barmy. They don't know the effect oxygen deprivation may have had as the mother became critically ill, and that's before you even consider the impact that the cocktail of drugs they'll be pumping her and the danger that poses to a very young developing foetus.

I wouldn't want to make any sweeping statements about, "if it were me", aside from I would hope that my partner or parents would consider all of the variables, including the long term health of the baby, and act accordingly. Of course most women would want to see their baby have a chance, but at any cost? This is just another example of Ireland's view of women as chattels, good for nothing except popping out weans. Can't escape it, even when you're "clinically" dead.

At the moment the woman is Clinically Dead, however her body is still capable of sustaining and feeding the baby inside her. That is amazing! And what a blessing to the family left behind.

Seriously?

Do you understand that no one knows that her body may sustain anything.

That as long as the foetus has a heartbeat, even if it develops abnormally and will die at birth the pregnancy has to continue.

You know we have hormones that control just about every process in our bodies will not be produced if the brain is dead, what do you think that will do tot he foetus? In a similar case in Texas the foetus was developing so abnormally sex could not be determined.

www.dallasnews.com/news/20140122-fetus-in-brain-dead-tarrant-woman-distinctly-abnormal-attorneys-say.ece

We do not know the circumstances of the pregnancy, we do not know if it is wanted, we do not know that it wasn't a problem with the pregnancy that killed the mother.

It may be a longed for baby, we don't know.

Using a dead body to produce a baby (which probably won't survive and if it does may have major health issues), against the wishes of the next of kin (we don't know what the dead women would have wanted) is not something I would call amazing.

Clinically dead means that the heart stopped breathing on its own. The brain should still show signs of activity.

I think it's a terrible choice to make and very sad to all involved.
I don't think it would have been a case of let's plug her in to allow the child to survive, but that she was already on life support and a decision should be made to turn it off or let it continue.

Personally, I would have wanted my baby to be given a chance.

And BTW, it's not anti-choice, but pro-life. A bit different.

This woman did not choose to get rid of her baby. Did she express the wish to get rid of this baby at any point before she died?

Ups, beating, not breathing. doh

Do you have a child OP? If you do, and you had 'died' during pregnancy, can you not think that you would have wanted that child to have a chance of life?

Yes, I do have a child. What's that got to do with this?

If I was 14 weeks pregnant when I died I would expect the fetus to die with me.

The only possible circumstances in which I would think this acceptable would be if the pregnancy was close to full term and the other parent (who would hopefully also have the status of next of kin) actively and expressly wished it. Keeping a woman alive solely to incubate a fetus for several months (approx 6 months I understand) appalls me. I believe it's the thin egde of a potentially very nasty wedge. As others have said, it is fetishisation of the fetus. How people think this is unconnected with Ireland's abortion laws (which fetishise the fetus and disregard the women's bodily autonomy) is beyond me.

This woman did not choose to get rid of her baby. Did she express the wish to get rid of this baby at any point before she died?
I don't think the woman had that 'choice' in Ireland. And we have no idea about the latter.

I completely agree with you OP.

And yes, I do have a child. Five of them.

Yes, I have two kids and am also in complete agreement with the OP. Not sure why "if you have children/if you've ever been pregnant/if you've ever had a miscarriage, you must agree that fetal life should be preserved at all costs" is always trotted out in cases like this.

Me either.

I have two children.

I think loosing g me would be hard enough without strangers deciding to do this to me and give false hope of some miraculous save coming from the worst time of their lives.

I doubt on their grief stricken state they could begin to understand the risks and potential reality of the situation.

let me go. Let my family grieve and move on and one day be happy again.

I'll take care of the baby. I believe in an afterlife.

Why would you not want to give your child a chance at life?

This woman chose to keep her baby.

She ended up at hospital where the function is and should be to preserve life.

Because you wouldn't want your family to witness your skin cracking on your lifeless limbs? Because you wouldn't want your two existing children to ask why mummy smells funny? Because you don't want your loved ones' last memories of you to be a gradually wasting shell lying on a hospital bed for potentially six months? Because you want them to begin grieving for you, rather than worrying about a potentially severely disabled baby which may or may not survive this process?

This is not some sort of altruistic act by the doctors who see this foetus as a life they could potentially save. They are following this course out of fear because their hands are tied by the 8th amendment. The chance of this pregnancy continuing and producing a moderately healthy child are very low indeed. But because of the impact of that legislation, her and her family's wishes and any concerns for her dignity are being tossed aside.

I'm not saying she didn't, but how do you know the woman 'chose' to keep her baby, plinky? There is no choice in Ireland.