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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think it's wrong for a dead woman to be used as an incubator?

365 replies

twofingerstoGideon · 18/12/2014 07:11

One of the most dreadful stories I've read in a long time. Could be triggering.

'Clinically dead' (that's dead, isn't it?) woman kept on life support machine to support 17 week fetus. Her own parents want the life support switched off. I really can't get my head around this at all.

AIBU to think we need to do everything possible to prevent our abortion laws becoming more restrictive and fight against the anti-choice demonstrators who are becoming more and more vociferous and ever-present outside clinics.

Surely even the most staunch anti-choicer can't argue that this is right.

story here

OP posts:
Gileswithachainsaw · 18/12/2014 09:29

of course it's a big deal.

what happens to the baby.

what happens. If grand parents are too old.

Gileswithachainsaw · 18/12/2014 09:30

or the dad's not around.

or there are no places in a foster home

Mmolly2013 · 18/12/2014 09:36

well the situation is known well in advance so theres plenty of time to find a nice adoptive family if needs be.

christmascrisis · 18/12/2014 09:38

I agree with the poster who said it's similar to organ donation. I've heard of situations where people are kept on life support to preserve their organs until they can be tranplanted - this is a pretty similar situation.

I would worry about how it might eventually affect the child though, knowing that he or she had essentially been gestated in the corpse of their mother.

TooHasty · 18/12/2014 09:40

I can't see how this is anything other than positive.

TooHasty · 18/12/2014 09:41

' would worry about how it might eventually affect the child though, knowing that he or she had essentially been gestated in the corpse of their mother'
well, as the only other alternative would be being dead......

MidniteScribbler · 18/12/2014 09:43

"If we argue that a woman's body can be used to sustain life and therefore it should be kept alive, why not use the bodies of other women in similar circumstances

Not only would I want my own child to have a chance in these circumstances, I would have no issue with my body being used as an incubator to give someone who otherwise couldn't have a child a chance. If I'm dead, I have no further use for my body. Might as well be used to do some good.

Gileswithachainsaw · 18/12/2014 09:44

well the situation is known well in advance so theres plenty of time to find a nice adoptive family if needs be.

and if the baby is delivered seriously pre term due to complications or the baby was starved of oxygen when the event that killed the mother occurred and the parents lined up couldn't take it?

APlaceInTheWinter · 18/12/2014 09:45

Giles that sounds dangerously like you're implying if a child doesn't have an obvious carer then it shouldn't be born. That's a much more dangerous precedent to set imo.
In normal circumstances grandparents don't get to choose if their grandchildren are born. It's not their decision and they do not need to take responsibility for the DC.
Yes this situation may be horrifically upsetting for them but tbh there are not enough facts in the article to know the truth of the situation. The mother's wishes should be paramount. Not the wishes of some political lobbying group trying to exploit this tragedy for their own ends.

Jenny70 · 18/12/2014 09:46

Presumably she was put on life support when they didn't know there was no chance she would survive... basically before they declared her "dead" or too brain injured to function. Now that she is on life support, the decision to take her off involves more than her own life...

I am pro-choice and I can see why the doctors/lawyers are reluctant to turn it off and allow a fetus to perish that could potentially survive (not a given). Once the decision was made to put her on life support, the fate of her unborn child was also now a factor in decisions going forward.

Gileswithachainsaw · 18/12/2014 09:47

in saying there are other factors to consider rather than just assuming that it's oh so wonderful and amazing that they can do this.

There will be risks. It's torture for the family. It's not some heroic save. everything needs to be considered.

SouthernComforts · 18/12/2014 09:48

Someone on the other thread made a point that really rresonated with me, what affect will there be on the baby not hearing it's mothers heartbeat/voice/movements during gestation? If any?

My dd was in an incubator for months after birth and not being able to touch or cuddle her really affected me quite badly. I think it affected her too because even 5 years on she isn't a cuddler, she prefers to sit by herself than on the sofa with me etc. Obviously it could be a coincidence but it got me thinking.

ginnybag · 18/12/2014 09:50

I agree that I would want this, if it were me. What difference does it make to the woman, after all?

I suppose to comes down to what she would have wanted - were her last words 'my baby, save my baby....!' or was she planning to abort?

If it's the first, then everything that can be done, should be. If the second, let her go.

In the absence of a clear answer, I would veer to the first.

Theboodythatrocked · 18/12/2014 09:52

Gosh it's difficult.

I am totally 100% pro choice and agree with abortion up to term if the mother chooses. A woman should have total and absolute autonomy over her body until the baby is out of her body.

The Irish laws are unspeakable cruel and vile.

However In cases like this it's a judgment that should be taken by the babies father, relatives of the woman and doctors. Case by case basis.

Mmolly2013 · 18/12/2014 09:52

southern comforts - thats just like saying a child who was born deaf and then can hear after help from doctors, would they have issues cuddling etc or would they love the sounds of people talking and cuddling because they never heard it before

APlaceInTheWinter · 18/12/2014 09:53

Giles I'm not assuming it's wonderful or amazing. I'm actually pointing out that there are too many assumptions in the article and this entire debate is artificially created political point-scoring that has little to do with supporting the family involved and everything to do with pushing a political agenda through the Irish parliament.

capsium · 18/12/2014 09:54

People who are saying "What if the surviving relatives cannot take care of the baby?" I would say there are always childless people who would want to.

I don't actually understand why the family would want to hurry up and bury their daughter, in this situation. I imagine in this situation, as a grandparent I would want the child to survive - it would give me comfort and hope. People often do have to wait to bury their relatives, if there has to be an investigation concerning cause of death for example.

If I had the choice myself, I can see me wanting to keep my body alive to sustain my baby. Dangerous precedent? Well the system copes with organ donation - I don't see why it cannot cope with this.

Theboodythatrocked · 18/12/2014 09:55

Giles see your points but nothing is set in stone in any life is it. No one knows what's around the corner any day of the week.

Number3cometome · 18/12/2014 09:56

FYI Mum died when the foetus was 14 weeks.

foreverdepressed · 18/12/2014 09:58

I wouldn't want anyone to abuse my dead body in this way.

Given that the mother is dead I think it should be the relatives and baby's father that get to make the final decision. It appears they have made the decision and it is not being respected in this instance. That is wrong. YANBU.

Gileswithachainsaw · 18/12/2014 09:59

It may give you comfort.

or you may think it would.

but no one can honestly say that. no one could k ow how the would feel watching the situation unfold over months. The stress the heart break. The Constant uncertainty. that takes its toll on people on their physical and mental health. on their relationships.

They could be unable to cope with the situation. They may think they can but when it came to the day they couldn't.

no one knows how they would feel.

Boysclothes · 18/12/2014 10:00

You realise the woman's heart IS beating? She's not literally a dead body.

I can't see the "point" of turning off her ventilator and killing the baby. It just seems very wasteful, or spiteful, or glib, or some other word I can't put my finger on. The woman's brain dead. It doesn't matter to her. So why NOTgive the baby a chance?

capsium · 18/12/2014 10:00

forever do you wanted to be cremated or buried? Embalmed? What constitutes abuse of a dead body?

Theboodythatrocked · 18/12/2014 10:01

The distasteful gestation to a corpse am guessing the facts wouldn't be presented to a child in that way!

4 generations ago many women died in childbirth leaving babies to survive. Should the babies have been left to die too just in case they felt guilty as adults.

capsium · 18/12/2014 10:01

They could be unable to cope with the situation. They may think they can but when it came to the day they couldn't.

no one knows how they would feel.

But this could be equally true if it came to the crux and they had to switch the machines off.